aircraft ID quiz time..... Swiss style

Swiss Mustangs · **Posted:** Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:18 am

Hi gang

let's see who's first to ID the fighter aircraft in this photo.... correct designations , please

Martin

Ztex · **Posted:** Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:32 am

Morane-Saulnier MS406?? Looks a little thin but...Maybe 411 or D3800?

Swiss Mustangs · **Posted:** Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:38 am

Ztex wrote:

Morane-Saulnier MS406?? Looks a little thin but...

let's say you've got the right family

Martin

Michel Lemieux · **Posted:** Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:12 am

Finish version ?

Different engine ? with a diferent prop.

Mörkö-Morane, or could they be MS410 ?

Michel

JUST FOUND IT

With a Klimov & different prop. Did not hit me, it has 4 blades.

visaliaaviation · **Joined:** Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:01 pm **Posts:** 353

Real "Swiss Mustangs". LOL

airnutz · **Posted:** Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:12 pm

Ahh...FFA D-3801. I learn something new everyday!
A 3-view drawing of D-3801 and D-3802...Sorry I don't know how to post the image..
www.airbornegrafix.com/HistoricAircraft/FFA.htm

Michel Lemieux · **Posted:** Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:34 pm

I stand corrected then :lol:

You do learn something new everyday.

Here you go AirNutz

Swiss Mustangs · **Posted:** Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:17 am

the drawing is erroneous in the designation...

The Swiss government was attempting to improve on performance they had gained from the D-3801, which was a Morane design, looking very much like the MS406. The D-3802 was created through a co-operation between Morane-Saulnier and Dornier-Werke AG. It was based on the Morane MS540.

The new plane was to have a new engine,. The Sarrer YS-2 was Swiss-built, developing 1'250hp. The prototype D-3802 flew in the autumn of 1944. The plane was to replace the aging Bf109E-3s.

Following evaluation by the Swiss Air Force, a batch of twelve aircraft was ordered. Various problems plagued production, and a myriad of modifications failed to rectify them. One of the aircraft, however, was given the new YS-3 engine, which developed 1'500hp. This aircraft was also given a cut-down rear fuselage that allowed for a bubble canopy to be installed.

Unfortunately, the problems of the D-3802 line got the aircraft relegated to secondary duties, and they were replaced in the fighter role by North American P-51 Mustangs bought 1948 as surplus from USAAF stocks in Germany [130 a/c].

The F + W D-3802 and D-3803 were perhaps only a minor example of aviation design, and might not even be considered successes, but they provided the Swiss with construction experience that would serve them well in the future.

Technical Data

Manufacturer: Farner-Werke (design from Morane-Saulnier and Dornier Werke AG)

Type: Single-seat fighter

Powerplant: One 1'500hp Saurer YS-3 12-cylinder Vee piston engine

Performance: Maximum speed 422 mph (680 km/h); service ceiling 12'000m (39'370 ft); range 650 km (404 miles)

Weights: Empty 2'945 kg (6'493 lbs); maximum 3'905 kg (8,609 lbs)

Dimensions: Span 10.02 m (32 ft 10 1/2 in); length 9.32 m (30 ft 7 in); height 3.33 m (10 ft 11i n); wing area 17.58 m2 (190.4 sq. ft)

Armament: One 20-mm Hispano-Suiza in propellor shaft and two 20-mm cannon in wings; and 220 kg (441 lbs) bombs/rockets beneath the wings.

the D-3800 was the license-built MS406C-1 - the D-3801 had a more powerful engine and a fixed radiator (the D-3800's were later brought to D-3801 standard) - the D-3802 was the advanced design with the birdgage canopy (also saw different versions) - some say ist was the MS408, others say it was the MS410 - even others name it the MS540 - but the Swiss incorporated many changes to all these designs, making it a virtually own Swiss variant; finally the D-3803 was the one-off example with a bubble canopy.

the photo I posted shows the entire fleet of D-3802's (standardized) with the D-3803 being the 2nd a/c from right.

Martin

Swiss Mustangs · **Posted:** Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:32 am

two more shots of the unique D-3803

and one of a D-3802

Martin

airnutz · **Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:16 am

Ooops!!

I guess I learned 2 new things..and a reminder! My guess was wrong, the correct info, and have
multiple sources before posting..Tho she is an obscure bird on any shore..

Thanks SwissM!!!

JDK · **Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:21 am

Yup goes under the list of W.W.II types I go 'Ummmm..." when asked to id.

Thanks for that. See, there's more to life than M... Oops.

Canso42 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:06 pm

Learn something new every day. I'd have guess the M-S family and been searching for a clue.

Do any of those survive?

Canso42

Oscar Duck · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:32 am

109's etc......so who's side were the Swiss on during the 'big' show?

PS: pretty colours!

Swiss Mustangs · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:38 am

Oscar Duck wrote:

109's etc......so who's side were the Swiss on during the 'big' show?

PS: pretty colours!

no side whatsoever.....

the Swiss AF acquired Bf-109's from 1939 and also licence built versions of the French MS-406.... during 1940, there were some skirmishes with Luftwaffe a/c with losses on both sides.... later, there were encounters with RAF and USAAF planes..... we just tried to defend our borders.... and 166 USAAF a/c landed in Switzerland during WW2 for internment. There also were many RAF and Luftwaffe planes that came down here, plus a few Italian a/c.

The Bf-109's flew until 1947 - the D-3801's served in the training role until 1959....

some interned aircraft were taken over after WW2, but the majority was either scrapped or returned.

Martin

Canso42 · **Posted:** Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:11 pm

I think the Swiss 109's were sharp looking. There's a good color plate of one in "The Encyclopedia of Aircraft" Robert Jackson, Gen. Ed., Thunder Bay Press, 2004, p. 342.
A black, white and red Emil-3.

Canso42

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aircraft ID quiz time..... Swiss style

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