AAA training: Question for those who know.

[Tulio]

The attached photo, was published at our web-site laahs.com (sorry Scott for the ad), and shows a Nicaraguan Army half-track, with what would seem to be a gun turret from a bomber (a B-17? A B-24? An A-20?) and it is possibly a local mod.

Seeing the photo made me recall similar set-ups for gunnery training in the USA during WW-II and for this reason, I would like to ask those who may know, if the photo shows a possibly one-off vehicle, or is this something that was probably mass-produced during WW-II?

Mr. René Sanchez provided the original photo:



Saludos,


Tulio

[Second Air Force]

Tulio,

The gunnery training trucks generally used at the training bases in WWII consisted of a 3/4 ton truck with the appropriate turret mounted in a similar fashion to what you've shown. I don't think that half-tracks were used by the AAF, so I'd guess that the one shown is local manufacture. When I find them I'll post a couple of pictures of what they used at Buckingham, Kingman, and Harlingen.

Scott

[Jack Cook]

looks like a Martin turret

[Tulio]

Scott, this is what I found:

http://browningmgs.com/AirGunnery/Train ... ilLine.jpg

And sure, those are trucks. I cannot remember where, but I recall having seen a half-track with a turret similar to the one shown on the photo on my first post.

Thank you guys, for your comments.


Saludos,


Tulio

[Taigh Ramey]

Cool photo Tulio.

Jack is spot on; that is a Martin 250CE turret in the back of the half track. I believe that this is a field mod and not a factory built production vehicle. This configuration does not show up in any WWII vehicle tech manuals or catalogs that I have come across. Two versions of the half track had a quad mount turret that was heavily armored and built much stronger than the Martin turret. These vehicles saw a lot of action even into Viet Nam.

The AAF had a 1 1/2 ton Chevy truck that was used for gun turret training. It was a standard closed cab vehicle that was sent to the Herman Body Works who installed their frame on the back and made the other mods to complete the E-5 Turret Training Truck shown here.



The truck was originally designed to use one of the three main aircraft turrets in use at the time namely the Martin 250CE (used on the A-20, Martin B-26, B-24 etc) the Sperry Upper (B-17) as shown above and the Bendix upper (B-25).

There were many field mods at the various gunnery training schools around the country to mount every other turret available from the Crocker Wheeler A-8 training turret to the Ball Turret and the B-24 turret shown in the link above.

Our small museum has one E-5 turret truck project and I have located two more that I hope to talk the owners out of in the future. Here is a link to a web page on our truck:

http://www.twinbeech.com/turret_truck.htm

If you all come across any 1 1/2 ton Chevy closed cab trucks available or any WWII turret stuff (Al!) please let me know. We would like to build at least two E-5 trucks with two different turrets for the museum.

[Jack Cook]

Taigh,
Do you still have contact info for Lucky Lowman???
Talked to him years ago when I was working on the 20th FG stuff.
Thx......Jack

[Second Air Force]

If you go to the link Taigh posted earlier you can see many of the different variations of turret trucks used at the Gunnery Schools. I forgot Las Vegas when I listed the other schools, and it seems that the truck Taigh is restoring was assigned there. I have not found my references that showed a few more turret trainers, but the B-17 chin turret was also mounted on these trucks for training.

Here are a couple of photos of what we have at our Air Base Historical Society storage area:

These are Martin upper turret mounting rings used at the stationary range at McCook Army Air Field when the B-24 Second and Third Phase program was in operation. The crew training fields generally didn't have the trucks but rather used fixed turrets at the shooting ranges. These were tossed in the salvage pile after converting to the B-29 in late '44.


These are the pulleys for the targets on the Poorman Range at Harvard AAF, Nebraska. The pulleys were mounted on poles, cables ran from pulley to pulley, and the targets hung from the cables, just like the shooting gallery at the county fair. The Poorman Gunnery Ranges were used to "polish" the training of CFC gunners at the Nebraska and Kansas B-29 stations prior to heading overseas.


While we're on the subject of Harvard, here is a gunnery training truck used when the 501st Bomb Group (VH) was training there. The CFC system was eliminated on their B-29B aircraft, and the scanners were taught flexible gunnery with this set-up.

Scott

[Taigh Ramey]

Hey Jack,

Lucky Lowman does not ring a bell. Sorry I don't have his contact information for you. Who was he?

Scott,

Cool stuff. Are the rings all the same diameter? I need to trade you out of a couple or more if they are different sizes. Speaking of trades is there any progress on getting those awesome B-29 bomb bay tanks for the NASM and the Enola Gay?

I have some shots of the Poorman Gunnery Range in my research file at home that look like they were taken when the range was being set up. They show B-17 tail turrets on concrete mounts and other turrets as well.

Your shot of an E-9 truck is awesome. I have never seen or heard of one. It has the box on the back like it was a standard E-5 at one time.

Do you all have any other turret mounting frames kicking around? I am looking for the angle iron frame for the back of the E-5 to aquire or just measure.

Any more gunnery truck photos?

Thanks Scott,

Taigh

[Jack Cook]

Lucky Lowman does not ring a bell. Sorry I don't have his contact information for you. Who was he?

He's on your website has a speaker at a warbird meeting at your hanger
He flew P-51s in the 20th FG in England and commanded a Skyraider sqd in VN. He's written about in My Secret War by Rick Drury.
Our Warbird Group meetings are held at the Stockton Field Aviation Museum 7432 CE Dixon St., Stockton Metro Airport, on the third Wednesday of each odd month at 7 PM. This means that the meetings are in January, March, May etc on the third Wednesday. Please join us as there is no admission charge. We also have an annual BBQ during the meeting in September and that meeting time is usually an hour early at 6 PM.

The WWII Warbird group is having its next meeting on Wednesday evening, November 14th at the Stockton Field Aviation Museum at 7pm.

From the WWII Warbird president, John Schippers:

Our speaker will be W.E. “Lucky” Lowman, retired Air Force pilot who flew P-51s in the 8th AF during WW II. Lucky was born and raised in Illinois graduating from high school in 1939. He came to California to work in the defense industry and was in LA when Pearl Harbor was attacked. Due to his defense work he wasn’t drafted and so enlisted in January 1943. He flew the customary Stearman, BT-13, and AT-6 getting his wings in Florida. He took transition training in P-40s and shipped out to England in September 1944. There he checked out in P-51s and was assigned to the 20th Fighter Group, 55th Squadron. After only 20 hours in the P-51 he flew his first combat mission. He went on to fly 52 missions when the war ended and he came home in October 1945. He joined the reserves and was recalled in January 1951 and served in the Air Defense Command in radar defense. He spent a year in Labrador and time in Thule, Greenland. Lucky flew 185 combat missions in Vietnam flying Skyraiders. Later he flew F-4s and F-104s in Germany. The F-104 was his favorite aircraft although it was one he had to bail out of. He retired in 1973 finishing 30 years of service. No wonder they call him Lucky. In retirement his began a second career playing golf and can be found most days at the La Contenta golf course in San Andreas. Bring a friend and come out Wednesday and hear a varied and

[Second Air Force]

Taigh,

I will dig in my archives and find the blueprint for the E-9 truck. They were local manufacture, and Harvard actually drew up and executed the vehicle in my picture. I'm pretty sure that all four of the Nebraska fields that trained the 315th Bomb Wing Groups had a few of these trucks, but don't know where else they may have been used--possibly Clovis. This scanner/gunner scheme was put together specifically for the turretless 315th Wing.
It does appear to have been a "normal" turret training truck that they modified. The gun mounts on these babies had a pretty sophisticated camera scoring device on them, and the film was developed and critiqued as rapidly as feasible. Here is the detail photo:


I'll start a new B-29 Gunnery Training thread posthaste.
Scott

[Forgotten Field]

I have photos of 250 CE's that were placed in Higgins boats. The 250 CE was configured for use on several vehicles in WWII. BTW, the Chevy truck is a 1.5 ton, not 3/4 ton.

[Second Air Force]

FF,

Yup, you and Taigh are correct about the ton-and-a-half trucks--I don't know where I got the 3/4 ton stuff from. After I dug up the Harvard pictures I knew I goofed. Thanks for keeping me straight!

Scott

[Swiss Mustangs]

here's another one I found on historylink101



Martin

[Taigh Ramey]

Jack,

Sorry I didn't remember Lucky Lohan as a speaker at out Warbird Group. I will get his contact information for you from John Schippers as he is the guy who sets up the guest speakers.

Hey Martin,

Thanks for finding that photo. It is the first color shot of a turret truck that I have seen so far. Too cool.

I am presently in Switzerland working on a Beech 18. How far are you from Grenchen Airport?

Taigh