Warbird Information Exchange

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on this site are the responsibility of the poster and do not reflect the views of the management.
It is currently Mon Mar 30, 2026 6:30 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:28 pm
Posts: 151
Location: Springfield Illinois
More bad news from liability concerns

http://www.warbirdalley.com/news.htm#latest


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Go figure
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:47 am 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!

Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:06 pm
Posts: 1664
Location: Baltimore MD
If you get too close to a jet, it might bite you. I'm glad somebody is seeking judicial precedent to clarify that to the rest of the public.

_________________
REMEMBER THE SERGEANT PILOTS!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:17 am 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:10 pm
Posts: 4173
Location: Pearland, Texas
It also didn' help that the Director of the show and general sparkplug of the show was killed in the crash. Warren was a real enthusiast and I'm sure that his loss left a tremendous gap to fill.

_________________
"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass..."
Admiral Isoruku Yamamoto


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:42 am
Posts: 350
WTF? Did the Cheyenne driver not put the plane into the MiG's jetwash? How is that the fault of the MiG pilot???


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:43 pm 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:10 pm
Posts: 4173
Location: Pearland, Texas
And why does the general public need a judicial precedent ?

_________________
"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass..."
Admiral Isoruku Yamamoto


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:38 pm 
Offline
Senior Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:22 am
Posts: 3875
Location: DFW Texas
I think Forgotten was being facetious...

Maybe he should have put one of these at the end of his sentence... :roll:

_________________
Zane Adams
There I was at 20,000 ft, upside down and out of ammunition.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Join us for the Texas Warbird Report on WarbirdRadio.com!
Image http://www.facebook.com/WarbirdRadio
Listen at http://www.warbirdradio.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:10 pm
Posts: 889
Location: Burlington, WI
My thoughts exactly! Judicial precedent for what?
David


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:47 am 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:36 am
Posts: 1202
A lot of times, liability insurance gets blamed since its something that is easy to pin problems on. The question here is pretty simple? Is insurance available or not? If it is available, how much is it and is someone willing to foot the bill for it?


Last is an even more basic question. Did the accident happen during the airshow (I think not)? Did it happen while doing something connected to the airshow (shooting promo shots, etc........) ? Or last did it just happen when the boys said, lets go flying and take some pictures since pictures since we are all here.............?

Those are some things that need to be considered and discussed more than "A MIG can or cannot shoot down a Cheyanne"; Accidents do happen, etc............

Mark H

_________________
Fly safe or you get to meet me .......


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:01 am 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:10 pm
Posts: 4173
Location: Pearland, Texas
Mark, they usually flew the photo shoot the day after the airshow. Usually Warren would throw the photo shoot out there as an additional carrot. The fuel was taken care of, by who I don't really know, I believed it came from show rescources.

How do I know this, you might ask ? The Collings F-4 was the subject of the same photo shoot the previous year. Richard Seaman has some stuff posted from that shoot. Fortunately Richard was not on board for the Mig 21 shoot.

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/Misc/F4dAirToAir/index.html

_________________
"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass..."
Admiral Isoruku Yamamoto


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 962
Location: my home planet is EARTH!
"NTSB Identification: LAX07FA012
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Wednesday, October 18, 2006 in Perkinsville, AZ
Aircraft: Piper PA-42, registration: N121CS
Injuries: 5 Fatal.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On October 18, 2006, at 1347 mountain standard time, a Piper PA-42 (Cheyenne III, file photo of type, center), N121CS, was destroyed when its tail section separated in flight while maneuvering about 16 nautical miles northeast of Prescott, Arizona. The airline transport pilot and four passengers sustained fatal injuries and the airplane was destroyed. The airplane was operated by the pilot under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91 as an aerial photography flight. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and a flight plan was not filed for the local flight that departed the Ernest A. Love Field, Prescott, about 15 minutes before the accident.

The intent of the flight was to take aerial photographs of a MiG 21 airplane (N21UT). The pilot of the MiG 21 indicated that he and the Cheyenne pilot discussed the photo flight the day of the accident, and had established 2,500 to 3,000 feet above ground level (agl) as their minimum altitude and 200 knots as their minimum airspeed. The MiG and Cheyenne pilot did not establish a minimum separation distance, as it was not intended to be a formation flight. The MiG pilot reported that they intended on adjusting the in-flight separation as the flight progressed.

The MiG pilot reported that he departed the Prescott airport and flew straight out on a northeast heading. On departure, he experienced a problem retracting the landing gear and noted that only the nose landing gear successfully retracted. He recycled the landing gear handle from up to off and back to the up position, and received a successful gear retraction indication. He notified the Cheyenne pilot of the landing gear problem, but informed him that he believed the landing gear was retracted. The Cheyenne pilot indicated that they would join up with the MiG, look it over and check-out the landing gear, and let the MiG pilot know what they saw.

The MiG pilot flew the airplane at 9,000 feet mean sea level (msl) in a 30-degree right-hand turn at 200 knots with approach flaps selected (approximately 25 degrees). He continued to circle in that configuration to allow the Cheyenne to rendezvous with the MiG. The MiG pilot reported that he observed the Cheyenne meet up at his 5 o'clock position about 300-400 feet behind him about the same altitude. The MiG pilot looked forward and when he looked back to the Cheyenne, he could not see it. About 30 seconds later, he heard the Cheyenne pilot comment about the right landing gear or gear door, but the statement was not completed. The MiG pilot waited to hear back from the Cheyenne pilot, but when he did not receive any additional information, he asked the Cheyenne pilot to repeat because he didn't understand the last transmission. The Cheyenne pilot did not respond and the MiG pilot never received additional information.

The MiG pilot continued flying in that manner and tried to reach the Cheyenne over the radio. After a couple of minutes he observed a column of smoke rising from the desert terrain and became concerned about the Cheyenne. The MiG pilot called the Prescott air traffic controller and asked if they were receiving an emergency locator transmitter (ELT) because he could not see the Cheyenne, could not reach him over the radio, and could now see a column of smoke in the area in which they were flying. The controller reported that they were not receiving an ELT signal but asked for coordinates for the smoke so they could send someone to check it out. The MiG pilot provided the coordinates and flew around a while longer to burn off fuel prior to landing. He informed the controller that he was having problems with his landing gear so the controller cleared him for the option.

The MiG pilot landed uneventfully. The MiG was later inspected for contact with the Cheyenne but no evidence of contact between the two airplanes was noted.

A statement provided by the Prescott airport manager indicated that he was listening to both aircraft as they taxied and departed the airport. He then switched frequencies to the air-to-air frequency used by the MiG and Cheyenne pilot (123.45). He reported hearing the conversation between the MiG and the Cheyenne pilots, and then heard the Cheyenne pilot indicate that he would "drop down and go underneath and let you know how it looks" after the MiG pilot informed him that he had recycled his landing gear and believed they were retracted.

Radar data from the Seligman, Arizona, RADES facility depicted the MiG in a right-hand turn. The Cheyenne joined up with the MiG on the inside of the turn and descended from above the MiG to below it. The Cheyenne's flight path matched that of the MiG and its last radar return with altitude information depicted both aircraft at 7,900 feet msl at 1346:47.

The Cheyenne's main wreckage (which included the entire aircraft with the exception of the upper half of the vertical stabilizer, horizontal stabilizer, and elevator) was located at a global positioning system (GPS) measured location of 34 degrees 52.821 minutes north latitude and 112 degrees 15.197 minutes west longitude at a terrain elevation of 4,366 feet msl. The main wreckage came to rest on a heading of 230 degrees, in an inverted position, and had sustained fire damage throughout its entirety with the exception of the aft empennage, lower vertical stabilizer, and rudder. The fuselage and wing skin had melted allowing investigators to trace the control cables from the cockpit to the ailerons, rudder, and base of the elevator pushrod. No anomalies with the cables were noted. In addition, the engine controls were traced from the cockpit to their respective engines.

The T-tail section of the airplane came to rest at a GPS measured location of 34 degrees 52.420 minutes north latitude and 112 degrees 15.241 minutes west longitude at a terrain elevation of 4,466 feet msl. The tail section included the upper portion of the vertical stabilizer, the horizontal stabilizer and elevator, which all remained intact and came to rest on the topside of the horizontal stabilizer/elevator. The tail section did not sustain any fire damage, and was missing the left elevator counter weight. Movement of the elevator reveled no binding or pre-existing anomalies.

On October 20, 2006, the tail section was transported to the main wreckage where they were examined together. Examination of the vertical stabilizer's front and aft spars revealed that they were bent and twisted to the right. The rudder was twisted to the right about 180 degrees. All fracture surfaces on the vertical stabilizer and elevator vertical push-pull tube were irregular and deformed and did not display any evidence of fatigue cracking or pre-existing failures."

_________________
EVERYTHING that CAN fly should be ALLOWED to FLY!
IWO JIMA'S best narative..."GOD ISN'T HERE"
http://www.amazon.com/God-Isnt-Here-Ame ... 0976154706


P: Noise coming from under instrument panel. Sounds like a midget pounding on something with a hammer.

S: Took hammer away from midget.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:08 pm 
Offline
Been here a long time
Been here a long time

Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am
Posts: 11330
Sounds like the MiG was in a high lift configuration with flaps and banking in a turn. "Caution, wake turbulence..." I'm surprised a Cheyenne would fall apart that easily, but then again wake turbulence in such close proximity can create a lot of force.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:29 am 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:44 am
Posts: 3293
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Strange situation.

I've done a lot of turning rejoins before, some with students that have flown right through the jetwash. Even off a little jet that is clean and at a reasonable speed (T-38 at 300 or 350 knots) it creates a pretty big thump, even 1K' to 2K' back. It's never comfortable...in fact, whenever we hit jetwash we check the G meter, and have to consider the reading an "asymmetric" reading, which is usually about 1/2 of the symmetric G limits.

So, I can imagine if the Cheyenne was less than 500 feet back, slightly low (so as to get a good look at the belly/gear), and flew that big T-tail right into the wake turbulence...it might just twist that thing right off.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot] and 172 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group