Why does it cost so much to overhaul and engine?
Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:13 am
Everytime I read about someone sending an engine out and it costing a 100,000$ just to tear it down, I wonder; why?
I mean these were massed produced engines that were meant to be torn down and serviced rather quickly in the combat arena.
I admit that part of my problem is that I am a Military Aircraft Mechanic, and have been for 28 years ( on the 9th!). I can pretty much guarentee that when we tear down a t53 series or t700 that it does not cost 100,000$. In fact I know that if anything we pay more for our tools and supplies than the average civilian ( you have heard of the 1000$ hammer?), and still do it for less money.
A few years back we totally rebuilt one of our airframes. New Transmission, engine, gear boxes, mast, rotor head, and blades. As I recall 200 man hours, or less into the total project. Total cost for labor for me and a Spc; about 1900$. Oh, yeah and maybe 6 hours of TI time.
Now if our labor to put togeather an entire a/c is less than 2000$ then how the heck do these companies get away with charging so much just to tear one down? I understand that the shop has to charge abit to take care of overhead and make a profit, but; come on!
At one time I worked as a mechanic in an auto shop and we charged 100$ an hour shop rate. The mechanic got 9$ of that and the owner told me that, on average, 15 of that went to overhead, the rest was profit.
Interested in your replies
Joe
I mean these were massed produced engines that were meant to be torn down and serviced rather quickly in the combat arena.
I admit that part of my problem is that I am a Military Aircraft Mechanic, and have been for 28 years ( on the 9th!). I can pretty much guarentee that when we tear down a t53 series or t700 that it does not cost 100,000$. In fact I know that if anything we pay more for our tools and supplies than the average civilian ( you have heard of the 1000$ hammer?), and still do it for less money.
A few years back we totally rebuilt one of our airframes. New Transmission, engine, gear boxes, mast, rotor head, and blades. As I recall 200 man hours, or less into the total project. Total cost for labor for me and a Spc; about 1900$. Oh, yeah and maybe 6 hours of TI time.
Now if our labor to put togeather an entire a/c is less than 2000$ then how the heck do these companies get away with charging so much just to tear one down? I understand that the shop has to charge abit to take care of overhead and make a profit, but; come on!
At one time I worked as a mechanic in an auto shop and we charged 100$ an hour shop rate. The mechanic got 9$ of that and the owner told me that, on average, 15 of that went to overhead, the rest was profit.
Interested in your replies
Joe
Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:32 am
Liability insurance for the overhauler? Scarcity of 40-70 year old parts? Lack of interest in making new parts due to liability (see insurance)? Confiscatory tax rates? Lack of experienced employees (all the guys that overhauled these things when they were in common usage are long retired)? Environmental regulations for solvents, painting and plating?
It cost $30K to get my T-6 engine overhauled by a reputable shop. 4 cylinders were cracked and had to be replaced with used/overhauled units. Probably still cheaper than getting an engine in a Cessna 421 overhauled!
My $30K is for a 9-cylinder engine with a single stage/single speed supercharger. At least twice as many parts in an 18-cylinder engine (pressure carb, prop reduction gear and maybe a two speed/two stage blower to boot).
It cost $30K to get my T-6 engine overhauled by a reputable shop. 4 cylinders were cracked and had to be replaced with used/overhauled units. Probably still cheaper than getting an engine in a Cessna 421 overhauled!
My $30K is for a 9-cylinder engine with a single stage/single speed supercharger. At least twice as many parts in an 18-cylinder engine (pressure carb, prop reduction gear and maybe a two speed/two stage blower to boot).
Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:07 am
If you ever rebuild a large radial,or v-12. Your post title would be "HOW DO THEY MAKE A LIVING?"
Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:07 am
Lets see...1900$ for two men for a total of 200 manhours comes to a pay rate of $4.75 per hour per man....not even minimum wage in the civilian world. I used to get that much per hour for tool replacement when I worked for an air cargo outfit.
Military costs are not anywhere close to what the costs are in the civilian world. The only way you can really compare is converting military costs to the open market equivalents. It will open you eyes as to why they cost what they do.
Military costs are not anywhere close to what the costs are in the civilian world. The only way you can really compare is converting military costs to the open market equivalents. It will open you eyes as to why they cost what they do.
Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:26 am
And don't forget the looming presence of our friends in the blue blazers and the requirements for stuff to last without failure. Back in the 50's BARDAHL oil additive co. here in the Seattle area wanted to get their oil additive CAA approved. They ran a 985 @ KBFI around the clock for months and couldn't get the feds blessing. So a BDK said, legalaties, lawyers, Feds, finding the parts and proving them serviceable, all enter into the equation. I know a fellow instructor who worked for one of the bigger radial outfits in the area and he has a wonderful side business at flea markets selling worn our R-2800 cam rings as polished picture frames, when the last cylinder is up for grabs, highest bidder wins!
Keep in mind that around 80% of all law school graduates work for the Federal Government for at least part of their careers, want to spend a scintillating evening? Pick up a copy of the FARs and start reading!
Keep in mind that around 80% of all law school graduates work for the Federal Government for at least part of their careers, want to spend a scintillating evening? Pick up a copy of the FARs and start reading!
Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:29 am
Very interesting subject.
Cost of overhaul has always been the main factor why i never bought my dreamed DH Chipmunk.
Why ?
The DH Gipsy engine was a mass produced, 4 cylinders, 120 HP and very very simple engine but you cannot find a single restoration shop in Europe that will overhaul it for less than 15.000/20.000 GBP (or 30/40.000 USD) NOT including major replacement parts if needed !
Laurent
Cost of overhaul has always been the main factor why i never bought my dreamed DH Chipmunk.
Why ?
The DH Gipsy engine was a mass produced, 4 cylinders, 120 HP and very very simple engine but you cannot find a single restoration shop in Europe that will overhaul it for less than 15.000/20.000 GBP (or 30/40.000 USD) NOT including major replacement parts if needed !
Laurent
Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:53 am
$9000 to replace the four jugs on my puny little Continental C-85-12F by brand new ones from ECi, including labor.
That's why I own a 140, and not a little warbird like the Chipmunk !
That's why I own a 140, and not a little warbird like the Chipmunk !
Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:08 am
It's a matter of liability costs, as well as parts volume. For example, the 3.6L 247hp air-cooled flat six in my 1993 Porsche 911 would cost about $18,000 for a quality professional rebuild. My business partner just put a 260 hp factory reman IO-540 on his 1999 C-182 for $55,000 (AFTER the crankshaft rebate). Meanwhile, you can get a crate 350 hp V-8 engine at AutoZone for $3k.
There were around 70,000 3.6L Porsche engines produced, and I'm guessing a slightly less if not similar number of IO-540s (from 260 to 300 hp). So, even if you consider an adjustment in parts prices based on lower volumes, you can get an idea of what product liability costs have done - and are still doing - to the aviation industry.
There were around 70,000 3.6L Porsche engines produced, and I'm guessing a slightly less if not similar number of IO-540s (from 260 to 300 hp). So, even if you consider an adjustment in parts prices based on lower volumes, you can get an idea of what product liability costs have done - and are still doing - to the aviation industry.