Fighter groups, squardons, bomber groups, etc.

Without researching the matter too deep, can anyone explain the numbering system used by the USAAF during WW2? Where do the numbering systems come from? ... i.e. ... 353 FS ect., 17th bomb Group ect. I have never really understood the numbering system.

[muddyboots]

You know, I always wondered about that as well. And the whole German system messes with my head as well.

[Second Air Force]

I can't be certain, but it looks like the numbering system the USAAF used simply went from 1 on with the numbers assigned to Fighter, Bomber, Transport, or whatever Group that was next up to be numbered. 331st Bombardment Group, 357th Fighter Group, 438th Troop Carrier Group, 509th Composite Group etc.

Scott

Would this numbering system have started at (1) when the USAAF was born? because that would tell me that there were at least 357 fighter groups, etc. Does that seem right? that many fighter groups? I'm still confused.

[Jack Cook]

The whole thing is a complete mystery.
I don't even thing the AF knows

there's got to be an answer, why? why? ... were did the 8th AF come from? Does that mean there was a 1st AF , 2nd AF etc? .... How about you Randy? do you have an idea?

[Jack Cook]

Air Forces numbered 1-15 & 20.
Check this and see the insignia of them all.
http://www.armyairforces.com/default.asp

[JDK]

I don't know the specific answer, but...

Generally it's regarded as a bad idea to give your enemy (in wartime) a quick count of the size of your forces.

The British had 'blackout blocks' in the aircraft serial numbers so an assessment of strength couldn't be built up by evaluating serial numbers.

Likewise military formations can be numbered to confuse, not exist (Patton's phantom army for D Day) or have a rich heritage that stops changes / stand-down (617 Sqn RAF).

Likewise codenames work as codes if they aren't bombastic; but that's a clear break between US and British forces after W.W.II.

So does that mean 357 FS is just a number that really doesn't mean anything? Just wondering, then I'll drop it.

[Second Air Force]

Hellcat,

To try to further explain my earlier post, by the end of the war over 500 different Groups had been formed, either on paper or actually constituted with men and machines. Many never saw the light of day other than on a Table of Organization. Other units were combined or absorbed by other groups and the number of the absorbed unit was left unused. If you go to the following link a fine explanation of the organization of USAAF units is given along with histories of each Group listed:
http://libraryautomation.com/nymas/usaaf1.html
Keep going to Part 2, etc. to see the history of any AAF unit you desire. I've used this volume many times in my research and am indebted to Mr. Maurer for compiling this history.

Hope this helps,
Scott

[Jerry O'Neill]

Groups and Squadrons were numbered similarly and in sequence, but there was never two of the same number for a Group or a Squadron in the same line of work, ie: Fighter, Bombardment and Troop Carrier etc..

As an example, the 325th Fighter Group was the only Fighter Group with that designation, and the three Squadrons in that group were the 317th, 318th, and 319th.

There was a 325th Fighter Squadron, assigned to the 327th Fighter Group along with the 323rd and 324th, Fighter Squadrons.

There was a 325th Bombardment Squadron, but it was part of the 92nd Bombardment Group, that also included the 326th & 327th Bombardment Squadrons.

To confuse matters a little bit, there was also 317th, 318th and 319th Troop Carrier Squadrons assigned respectively to the 2nd, 3rd, and 1st Air Commando Groups of the Tenth Air Force.
This means that there were at least two 318th Squadrons in the USAAF during WWII, a Fighter Squadron with the 325th Fighter Group and a Troop Carrier Squadron with the 2nd Air Commandos.

It helps to get a book on the subject, "WWII Combat Squadrons of the United States Air Force" published by the USAF Historical Division back in 1969, is a good one to start with.
Jerry

I thought there would be a simple explanation, but I guess not, but the websites and literature do clear up most of my questions. Thanks folks for your knowledge.

[Swiss Mustangs]

and to confuse things even more.... there were for example 78th FG squadron (8th AAF) codes MX-, WZ- and HL which were also used on 31st FG (15th AAF) Squadrons.... dito for the 4th FG (8th AAF) QP-, WD- and VF- that were duplicated on 52nd FG (15th AAF).... all flew P-51's... there are more examples.....

Martin

[Chicoartist]

and to confuse things even more.... there were for example 78th FG squadron (8th AAF) codes MX-, WZ- and HL which were also used on 31st FG (15th AAF) Squadrons.... dito for the 4th FG (8th AAF) QP-, WD- and VF- that were duplicated on 52nd FG (15th AAF).... all flew P-51's... there are more examples.....

Confusion? Maybe, maybe not on the part of the Germans, but matter of fact, that's precisely why those squadron codes were duplicated in some 15th Air Force units. It was not accidental, or simply an "administrative" thing.

German Intel folks (the idea, anyway): "Heck, they're all over the damnplace!"

Wade

[mike furline]

You know, I always wondered about that as well. And the whole German system messes with my head as well.

Here's an example of how the German worked it. Jagd = fighter.

Normally there is about 94 fighter aircraft in a Geschwader, a Stab (Staff) flight (4 aircraft) and three Gruppe in a Geschwader, with three Staffel in each Gruppe.
Gruppe designations used Roman numerals, Staffel designations used Arabic numbers.

Trying to keep it simple as there were a lot of variations, each Staffel would use a different color for thier numbers and/or a staffel marking. Lets say 1. Staffel would use White 1 - 10 as numbers, 2. Staffel would use Green 1 - 10 as numbers, 3. Staffel would use Red 1- 10 as numbers, etc..
You will see a/c referred to as Bf-109 Red 6, White 1, etc.
A Geschwader or Gruppe commander would/could use chevrons << or < or <1 instead of just a plain number on his a/c.

If you saw this written "III/JG26", that would refer to III. Gruppe and "7./JG26" would refer to 7. Staffel.

Jagdgeschwader 26

Stab flight (4 a/c)

I. Gruppe (30 a/c)
1. Staffel
2. Staffel
3. Staffel

II. Gruppe (30 a/c)
4. Staffel
5. Staffel
6. Staffel

III. Gruppe (30 a/c)
7. Staffel
8. Staffel
9. Staffel

Hope I'm not confusing you more,
Mike

Last edited by mike furline on Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.