Warbird Information Exchange

With the advent of the new ME 262s. A question came to mind. In the years to come are more and more authentic replica warbirds going to come into being? Not just the 262s but all other marks. Will the day come were real warbirds will be too valuable to fly? And I'm talking authentic replicas such as the 262 where the aircraft are exact down to the rivet. Would seem to me that as future restoration project progress they could also be used as pattern aircraft. Also seems that there would be benifits. New construction, No FAA Restictions (if any), new mechanicals, lower insurance, customize without guilt and I'm sure there are other pros. Granted at first replicas I'm sure would only extend to the smaller aircraft but who knows, one day youre children might see a B-17 or a B-29 accurate in detail but all new. (Which might not be a bad deal for the Fixed Wing Airtanker Community considering recent events). And kind of like the 262's it would be amazing to see aircraft long since extinct to flying, for example the Hawker Typhoon, a miriad of Japanese aircraft. Granted I'm sure there is an argument as to the cost, but will the cost be so confining in 50 years when (God forbid) very few warbirds are flying. I was just wondering what you all thought what your points of views were? Thanks
Shay

Actually for some types you would have more restrictions, not less. Some such as the T-6, C-47, and PBY are in the standard category, others such as the P-51, B-17, and B-25 are in the limited category. I believe any reproduction/replica would be put in the experimental category as amateur-built.

I do agree with you, though, that reproductions are the way to go for more rare types, such as the 262's and Fw-190's. Actually, reproductions are more common already than you may think. What is a "data-plate restoration" if it's not building a reproduction with original paperwork?

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Dan Johnson

I admit to having limited knowledge as far as aircraft type limitations. I just recall on the Classic Jet Aircraft Assoc. forum that it was stated that they are limited in how far they can fly and for what reasons (i.e. airshows, etc.) because they are flying classic aircraft.

I see where your coming from. Is the aircraft still the same aircraft if less 50 % is used in the restoration? Who am I to say? I'm just happy that the aircraft was restored in the first place.

Back to the Replica topic. The aircraft wouldn't be held in the experimental catagory if they were produced by an actual manufacturer or company as complete airplanes would they? Perhaps this would also lead to the fabrication for a lot of long since gone hard to find parts that the warbird community could benefit from. Or atleast lower costs. Who knows maybe a lot of original WW2 toolings have survived the decades. As for there being a comercial market for new built WW2 aircraft. I can't really say. Not a large one i'm sure. But still would be nice.

1. There are special requirements for Experimental category turbine aircraft and pilots.- even for a BD-5J (jet) which only has a couple of hundred pounds of thrust. A homebuilt turbine aircraft requires a Type Rating (formerly a letter of authorization) for the pilot just like a Mig or a Fouga Jet would. You are still in the Experimental category, just Experimental Exhibition rather than Experimental Amateur Built. At the time the aircraft is licensed, you negotiate your operating limitations with the FAA.

2. Yes it would, unless the manufacturer got a Type Certificate for the airplane that would put it in another category ($$$$$Millions). There are also stability and control, and other safety requirements that something like an Me-262 might not be able to meet. And then you would still need a type rating to fly it.

This is similar to a conversation I recently had with Ryan K. With the #1 issue with warbirds today being insurance, and the escalating value of warbirds I can see the majority of the more popular type being grounded. One of the other big issues is powerplants. They are all more than 50 years old and are becoming increasingly expensive to acquire and maintain.

The warbird community needs new powerplants. Some individual or group needs to spend the time and money to develope and certifiy replacement engines. Even if you limited it to a Merlin, a radial, and even a Daimler-Benz engine you could find a market. Especially the DB engine (I know we've argued this before). With the proliferation and economic viability of replicas it is not unreasonable to see a market for the DB powerplant once they are made. 90% of the Hispano owners would more than likely dump the Merlin and fit a more accurate DB. With the availability of the inverted V other projects become viable, like the BF 110, Ju 87, He-111, heck even some Italian types.

Now the conversation with Ryan centered around a Bf 110 replica. If you created one out of modern materials and modern technics but externally looked and sounded like a Bf 110, and flew like one, would you care if it was internally accurate if you could see it fly?

We will more than likely have warbirds in some form for years to come, but will our grandchildren?

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Are all the Radial engine guys using the same barrels for the past 50 plus years? Or are new one being cast? I'm really surprised that this issue hasn't been addressed. Engine blocks and cases crack, throw a rod, pistons get holed. I thought I heard that Roush was planning on producing new merlins. I wonder what it would take to get a manufacturer to start reproducing engine cases for radials and engine blocks for the watercooled folks? I would imagine to keep cost down you would get multiple companies involved, spreading out the production. Then final assembly being handled by a engine shop. Imagine costs would be lesser if original toolings could be located. New engines might increase safety and reliability and whos if new engines became more prolific and thus more affordable you might even see more entries into air racing with custom built airframes. Oh well just day dreaming

Shay

Good call Scott.

Anybody know for sure what Flugwerk are describing on their website, when they talk about being able to supply DB motors?

"Along with the exclusive possibility to power the 109’s with all new DB 601 engines, Flug Werk has now the opportunity to revive another very important fighter aircraft of German WII fame."

This has me intrigued.

I think replicas are the way forwards. I wouldn´t want to see a genuine historic aircraft damaged badly, (or even during the course of being restored to flyable), to the point where large chunks of it have to be replaced, but if its a new build, then its no longer an issue. Just repair it and off you go - with no griping from purists.

cheers
james

One word: Liability.

Until someone can figure out how to hold engine companies from the liabilities associated with putting their "new" production stamp on a 50+ year-old design, it will never happen. There is no reason for those companies to pursue such things as they are a "break even" venture at best.

Remember, Rolls Royce and DaimlerChrysler exist to make a profit for their shareholders. That will motivate their decisions for the forseeable future. Until that changes, don't plan on anybody opening up a production/reproduction line....ever.

Surely engine manufactures must have liability insurance already. Otherwise they couldn´t sell anything. Why would a new build Merlin (for example) be more of a risk than any other piston engine? Do you mean to say that Rolls are in some way liable for old Merlins that are still in use?

I wouldn't think they would be since every Merlin out there is technically a "used" powerplant and any warranty is long since over. What the manufacturer's would need to do is get the engine certified to modern rules. You could also modify them to run on unleaded since fuel availability is becoming a long term issue.

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Scott Rose
Editor-In-Chief/Webmaster
Warbirds Resource Group - Warbird Information Exchange - Warbird Registry

Be civil, be polite, be nice.... or be elsewhere.
-------------------------------------------------------
This site is brought to you with the support of members like you. If you find this site to be of value to you,
consider supporting this forum and the Warbirds Resource Group with a VOLUNTARY subscription
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Thanks to everyone who has so generously supported the site. We really do appreciate it.

First off, it is common to either oversize the barrels and use larger pistons, or chrome the cylinders back to standard diameter. The cylinders typically last far longer than the pistons. And throwing rods and holing pistons usually equals a crash in a single engined aircraft. That doesn't happen often thankfully. Usually engine wear or non-catastrophic minor cracks is what condemns an engine part.

There are lots of spares around. Many of the American radials were operated by the US military into the late 1960's and early 1970's.

http://www.covingtonaircraft.com/business_end.asp
http://www.jwduffaircraft.com/985.html
http://www.jwduffaircraft.com/r1830.html


R-1340 cylinder barrels and heads are now being made new:

http://www.sunairparts.com/pressrelease.htm
http://eci2fly.com/NewsRoom/News_Releases/1340_Cylinders.htm

This is because the R-1340 was a very popular engine for agricultural uses, so many more of them got used up.

Aircraft Cylinder & Turbine Co, Sun Valley CA was mating R-2800 cylinder heads to the R-1340 for improved longevity (R-1340 Super 600). Haven't heard much since though and nothing is mentioned on their website, so maybe the effort has been abandoned.

Air Tractor was making new R-1340 crankshafts too I think.

The bottom line is, don't worry about this. If there is a legitimate demand, parts will come...

I think that replica warbirds are going to be the bulk of whats flying in 50 years. The Oscars, The 190's and the 262's are just the start. As far as liability, I think that that issue has gotten better in the last few years. A good example is Cessna. They stopped building the smaller airframes because they (and everyone else) were being held liable for every aircraft they had ever built. After a rule/law change, concerning 60+ year old aircraft, they started building 172's again. I think things are looking up for the future of "New" warbirds.

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Jack Handy

Our new build ME262's are in fact restricted to experimental exhibition. Straight and level passes at airshows point to point travel no unplanned stops for lunch or coffee, that is how it is in the states, however in Germany Tango Tango is able to maneuver more in its flight demonstration as can be seen on stormbirds.com or You tube. Some believe that a replica that is piston powered would not sound the same as an original, I agree. The other thing to think about is the cost and demand of new fab engines. Is there enough demand for a Napier or a DB 601? The cost to the owner would probably be more then the cost of the aircraft itself. We are fortunate in that the new 262's are jets and my guess is that a CJ610 or J85 probably sound a lot like Jumo 004? We will see And some would argue that data plate builds are not original, true, but look at the Ki 43's when was the last time you saw one fly? Or how many Zero's or Bf 109's are flying because of data plate builds? I am partial to the data plate build because of the of advantages you have, new material modern upgrades and not as valuable as an 100% authentic aircraft. And when I say not as valuable I mean sentimental value. There are many data plate builds underway right now if fact we have some parts and a data plate for a Bf109 sitting in the hanger next to three ME 262's So I believe that reproduction, replicas and data plate builds are a good thing Now if we could figure out how to drive down the cost and liability of those piston power plants

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Cold fusion.

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"I knew the jig was up when I saw the P-51D-20-NA Mustang blue-nosed bastards from Bodney, and by the way the blue was more of a royal blue than an indigo and the inner landing gear interiors were NOT green, over Berlin."

I'm intrigued to see how how you can get 90% out of the grand total of TWO Merlin-engined Buchons that currently fly.