Warbird owners taking legal action against photographers

[Ontario-Warbird]

Have a few questions about Warbird owners taking legal action against photographers for selling their images.

Background history

Many here know me as a novice aviation/wildlife photographer who has been lucky enough to have a few small articles in Flypast. After about 2 years of photography and video of Airshows around Ontario, I decided in 2007 that i wanted to volunteer with a local organization to help out. I was contacted that spring by the Russell Group to see if they would be able to use some of my images from the previous years for their program for the 2007 Airshow. So Of course being that they own a MKIV Spitfire I dove right in and wrote up some of the history of the aircraft and gave them various images for the program. I spent time out at their facility helping the organizers print the program and shot the show for a article for Flypast. I also was trying to design a new website for the Russell Group with all updated information for the 2007 Airshow to replace their out of date one ( which was done a few weeks before the show).

I have been using Photobucket to host my images for posting here on WIX and various other forums. I was contacted yesterday by the owners of Russell group threaten to take legal action against me because my images that are on Photobucket ( low re ) have the option to be purchased. I was not aware of this until yesterday and have closed the account and deleted all content off their site.

My question is: has anyone else here had issues like this and what would be the best way to proceed in the future. I am very tempted to just quit doing Warbird photography but I do love seeing the planes and the history behind them and of course meeting and talking with the pilots of these rare treasures. At least with Wildlife photography I don't think God will mine if I post images of his creatures


Dave C

[Nathan]

Sounds like a raw end of a deal.


So I got some pictures on photobutcket that I took. So I can't show them? I thought the person who took the picture owns the rights to it?

Last edited by Nathan on Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[flyboyid]

If the photos are taken in a public domain, can they really do anything about it?

[Randy Haskin]

I'm interested in the legal basis for such an argument. I can't think of one.

[tulsaboy]

I'm going to go very gently out on a limb here... my guess is that the Russell Group folks consider the work that you did for them "work for hire." In such a case, it is possible for the hiring entity (Russell Group) to essentially purchase the copyright on your photos before you take them, in exchange for a payment. It is also possible to contractually transfer the copyright for those photos to the Russell Group without payment. Did you enter into any contract with the Russell Group? If so, you might check the language to see if there is any mention of an option for RG to purchase your images and their copyright. Such an option is not usually open ended, and either comes in the form of a time frame or a right of refusal (basically if you wanted to sell them to Warbird Digest, Flypast or some other publication, you would have to contact RG and give them the right to purchase or refuse purchase, after which you would either not be able or would be able to sell them to whomever you chose, or to offer them in the public domain.)

If there is no contract, written, oral or otherwise, I'd say that RG might be on pretty shaky ground. Taking photographs of people and/or objects that are out in public view is entirely legal, and you have a right to do with your images as you choose (pretty much.)

[Mike]

You own the copyright to the photos, they have no rights whatsoever to those images. If you were actively profiting from selling copies, that MAY be a different matter if they specifically have terms and conditions limiting commercial exploitation of images taken on their property, otherwise, I would just ignore them!

Last edited by Mike on Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[wardie]

What was your agreement with them for use of the photos?

If you agreed to give the exclusive rights to the older photos they may be able to ask you to stop the selling part but only for those photos agreed to.

If you shot the show for THEM and had an agreement (contract) with them re the use of the output they may have the right with those photos.

If you shot the show for YOU (paid the entrance fee etc) then they can't stop you, unless the show ticket specifically banned photography - unlikely IMO.

If it's a big issue to you get advice from a lawyer, I'm just a tog starting up a business in another country.

Wardie

Edit: All this was written as the above posts were being posted.

[tom d. friedman]

shear greed $$$$

[Ontario-Warbird]

I never had any agreement with them prior to the 2007 Air Show. They did make me sign a agreement for the 2007 Air Show stating that i would not profit from the images from that show and it was discussed that some images would be submitted to Flypast for an article to promote the show and organization.

I have never sold any images or video privately to anyone but have gave copies to various organizations for their use and the odd image and video to various Veterans ( kinda my way of saying Thanks )

Just did not know that when your images are on Photobucket that they are kinda up for sale, wonder who gets the $ from that?

Thanks for the information guys

Dave C

Last edited by Ontario-Warbird on Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[n5151ts]

amoebas
singe cell invertebrates
LAWYERS
TOASTERS
OTHER SIMPLE HOME APPLIANCES
lizards
well you get the idea

[DB2]

I worked my way through college as a photographer, and then spent 3 years as a sports photographer with the Associated Press.

Here's the de facto rule, and I've seen it held up in disputes: unless you have an understanding (written contract or otherwise) beforehand that allows you to take pictures for multiple parties(yourself included) at a specific event, whoever is paying you to be at an event has sole ownership of any picture you take at that event.

Is the Russell Group being greedy here? Maybe, but they probably see those pictures as their property, and someone else could potentially make money off of them. It's one of these deals where you have to set a precedent and stick to it.

In summary, the default position is that they own all the pictures if you showed up on their nickel. It's up to the photographer to establish otherwise beforehand.

[Jack Cook]

Dave,
Your photobucket account can be private (which mine are).
You're the only one who can see them and you can share there
with whom ever you please.

BTW Dave it seems like you did all the giving here with a lot of time and effort on their behalf. What did you get in return besides a bunch of grief?

Last edited by Jack Cook on Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Ontario-Warbird]

Thanks for the info Jack, I never payed much attention to the fine detail of the service ( my own ignorance )

Dave

[gary1954]

by DB2 Here's the de facto rule, and I've seen it held up in disputes: unless you have an understanding (written contract or otherwise) beforehand that allows you to take pictures for multiple parties(yourself included) at a specific event, whoever is paying you to be at an event has sole ownership of any picture you take at that event.

The above is most correct. If they paid you any compensation for the work you performed, all of those images belong to them.

I did some illustration while I was on active duty. I looked into the copyright stuff and found, that if I was doing the drawings/illustrations/photography while working, the copyright belonged to the employer, so I opted to do my work when off duty.

[Jack Cook]

Nobody here's been threatened with a lawsuit since Scott & I were by M. O'L of AC