Warbird Information Exchange

Here's a question for the NA aficionados out there.

Are the T-6 and Harvard center section and wings a direct swap item, simply put are they the same??

Does anyone know of the above anywhere for sale, and what sort of dollar value would be placed on such an item (restored or unrestored, preferably unrestored but in good condition).

Pretty vague last question but I'm sure there is someone out there who can give an idea.

Thanks.

regards the direct swap question, I do not know, but here is a link to an "unrestored example"

however as it has been for sale for a very long time, perhaps the price is not in line with current market values?

http://www.jwduffaircraft.com/

go to classified, single engine, SNJ-4 (T6)

They are a little different and pretty much the same. Also. some were built in Canada by Canadian Car and Foundry and others by NAA.
We have an SNJ that was built from parts recovered from Japan. When the wing AD came along we decided to replace the wing stress doors as we really didn't know their history. It was the attach angle on the stress door that failed in Fla. I looked up the P/N in the SNJ/ T-6 parts book and ordered 2. When I tried to install them they wouldn't exactly match up and I could not use them. It ended up we have a Harvard Mk 2 center section. The P/N of one has a 66- prefix and the other has a 77- prefix. I don't remember which one is which at the moment.
Bottom line is we have over $5k of doors sitting on a shelf upstairs.
Talk to the folks at Lance Aircraft in Dallas TX. They should give you the straight story on that question.
Rich

Dragonfly

the Harvard comes in a number of "models" and the story is different for each.

Harvard Mark 1 (NA-49 Contract number) were built by North American but were very different from the T6 as it is essentually an NA-16 and more closely related to the Wirraway than the T6.

Harvard Mark Mark 11 (NA-66 contract number) were built by North American but with British equipment, it is based on the BC-1A or AT-6.

Harvard Mark 11A (NA-88 contract number) were also built by North American and were T-6C obtained via Lendlease, with American equipment.

Harvard Mark 11B were licence built by Noorduyn in Canada, based on the BC-1A or AT-6A, built to RAF specification with British Equipment.

Harvard Mark III (NA-88 contract number) were built by North American based on the T-6D/SNJ5 with American equipment.

Harvard Mark IV were licence built by Noorduyn in Canada post war, and were based on the earlier Harvard 11B design but incorporating many post war improvements similar to the US made T-6G.

Interchangeability with the T6 series would therefore be maximised between the Harvard II / III and the T-6C and T-6D.

Can you identify what your "starting with"

Lance would be the best source of parts for airworthy parts, our museum acquired a T6 centre-section in the US a couple of years ago for $1500 USD for use in a static restoration, however it would require a significant amount of work to use in an airworthy project.

Regards

Mark Pilkington

_________________
20th Century - The Age of Manned Flight
"from Wrights to Armstrong in 66 years -WOW!"

yes you can fit the SNJ/T6 wings to a Harvard IV center section. the outside attach angle that goes around the wing will match right up the inside wing spar cap to center section butt rib will not match. solution is to get some billet 2024T6 2"x2" 13" long and mill out a blank fitting. its not quite 90' ... its more like 87'.. then mark and match drill the new fitting to the spar cap nutplate holes and the center section but rib nut plate holes and attach ... i know of one t6 that is using a HVD IV center section and T6D right wing and SNJ5 left wing with this procedure

good luck

As Jeff said the that angle will not match, but I heard one time that if you take it off and reverse it, it will, don't know for sure.

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Probably not. Lance has the new undrilled angles. We have found that when swapping wings around many times you will have to put new ones in as they apparently were drilled in place.

The NAA extrusion number is IE52 and they are a 96.5 degree angle.

Harvard 4 was built by Canadian Car and Foundry.

Canadian built Harvards will not have the holes drilled for the gear door hinges (they did not have gear doors- something about snow and ice in the wheel wells) but those attachment holes can easily be back-drilled.

stoney
the t6 center section was a 5 hole attach and the HVD IV center section is a 6 hole so you can't just turn them around. you have to make new ones and match drill

tim
you are right. it was the other way ..i knew it was slightly off the 90'..memory fades as you get older... i went and checked a couple i have left over from the mod i did. i matched the angle to the actual airframe and wings and it came out to 94'

For a while the Canadian Museum of Flight had a Harvard Mk IV on display.

It apparently was a combination of a Harvard fuselage and a set of Texan wings. I don't have a clue what kind of work went into putting it together, but all I know is that it looked perfectly normal when I saw it. Then again, I was a little boy.

That's me in 1985... 3 years old.



This is my sister and I in 1986.


RCAF 20419 was only restored to static condition and when our museum acquired a flying example we sold RCAF 20419 to a group out East. I can't remember where. Something tells me to the CWH, but I can't remember, it was a long time ago... 1994 or so.

Cheers,

David

The machine in question is a Noorduyn built Mk2b project but missing the important bits in the middle.

Dragonfly,

I assume you have wing outer panels and fuselage for a Noorduyn 2B but no Centre-Section?

Then Canada might be the best source of a 2B Centre-Section, try writing to the Canadian Aeronautical Preservation Association, an association of Canadian Aviation Museums etc who might hold a spare 2B C-C or know of one available privately in Canada.

CAPA [capa@ns.sympatico.ca]

Alternatively if your wing outer panels are in need of major restoration themselves (particularly spar cap corrosion or match angle replacement) explore using both T6/SNJ Centre-Section and Wings sourced either via Lance or the NATA (North American Trainer Association), or barnstormers as the T6/SNJ Centre-Section should bolt onto the 2B fuselage and then wing to CC match angles etc will not be a problem.

regards

Mark Pilkington

_________________
20th Century - The Age of Manned Flight
"from Wrights to Armstrong in 66 years -WOW!"

Dragonfly

this Ad has just appeared on barnstormers.com under "warbirds" - "most recent", not sure of the condition but I know the Lance price for a centre-section is well above this price, and this claims to be a Harvard IIB

HARVARD IIB 1943 • $15,000 • FOR SALE • Damaged project with paperwork. Will need complete rebuild. No engine or prop. Cell 515-480-5095. • Contact Troy Westrum - located West Des Moines, IA USA • Telephone: 515-327-9176 • Posted October 2, 2007 • Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser • Recommend This Ad to a Friend • Email Advertiser • Report This Ad

regards

Mark Pilkington

_________________
20th Century - The Age of Manned Flight
"from Wrights to Armstrong in 66 years -WOW!"