News Copter Interferes With Firebomber
Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:28 pm
Last Friday near The Dalles, OR while working a active wildfire a firebomber was forced off
2 bombing runs and delayed on it's 3rd and final run by a newscopter from KGW-8 in Portland. The chopper pilot,
Daren Larson said that he had the same rights to the airspace has the firebomber crews.
Am I missing something here
Larry Kraus are you out there?
2 bombing runs and delayed on it's 3rd and final run by a newscopter from KGW-8 in Portland. The chopper pilot,
Daren Larson said that he had the same rights to the airspace has the firebomber crews.
Am I missing something here
Larry Kraus are you out there?
Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:37 pm
So does that mean he could block access to a fire with his news van? Maybe the firefighting outfits should start leaving a pair of 0.50's in one of the turrets...
That's just plain out of control.
greg v.
That's just plain out of control.
greg v.
Last edited by gregv on Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:37 pm
Was there a TFR in effect for the area of the fire fighting operation? If yes then he was in violation and they can take action against him. If not, then the helo pilot while making a bad decision is right that he can be there.
Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:58 pm
Another example of what is wrong with our great country these days...
Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:16 pm
This TFR is in effect today for OR. I'm not sure if this was in effect on the day of the incident. Of course it is possible that the helo pilot contacted the controling agency listed and obtained permission to be there. If thats the case then that is a coordination issue and a bad call on the person who gave the permission. With a TFR a NO means stay out! (As opposed to a NOTAM advising a hot MOA which states "avoidance advised". Of course I would'nt be flying in a hot MOA anytime)
FDC 7/0439 ZSE OR.. FLIGHT RESTRICTION, 30 WEST OF MADRAS, OR.
EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE. PURSUANT TO 14
CFR SECTION 91.137(A)(2) TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS ARE IN
EFFECT WITHIN A 3 NAUTICAL MILE RADIUS OF 444047N/1214020W OR
THE DESCHUTES /DSD/ VORTAC 310 DEGREE RADIAL AT 30.1 NAUTICAL
MILES AT AND BELOW 9000 FEET MSL TO PROVIDE A SAFE ENVIRONMENT
FOR FIRE FIGHTING OPERATIONS. B.I.A., WARM SPRINGS AGENCY,
TELEPHONE 541-553-2413 OR FREQ 132.875/BIDDLE PASS FIRE, IS IN
CHARGE OF THE OPERATION. SEATTLE /ZSE/ ARTCC, TELEPHONE 253-351-
3520, IS THE FAA COORDINATION FACILITY.
FDC 7/0439 ZSE OR.. FLIGHT RESTRICTION, 30 WEST OF MADRAS, OR.
EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE. PURSUANT TO 14
CFR SECTION 91.137(A)(2) TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS ARE IN
EFFECT WITHIN A 3 NAUTICAL MILE RADIUS OF 444047N/1214020W OR
THE DESCHUTES /DSD/ VORTAC 310 DEGREE RADIAL AT 30.1 NAUTICAL
MILES AT AND BELOW 9000 FEET MSL TO PROVIDE A SAFE ENVIRONMENT
FOR FIRE FIGHTING OPERATIONS. B.I.A., WARM SPRINGS AGENCY,
TELEPHONE 541-553-2413 OR FREQ 132.875/BIDDLE PASS FIRE, IS IN
CHARGE OF THE OPERATION. SEATTLE /ZSE/ ARTCC, TELEPHONE 253-351-
3520, IS THE FAA COORDINATION FACILITY.
Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:40 pm
Maybe the firebomber pilot should've dropped his load directly over the chopper. 
John
John
???
Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:40 pm
News chopper causes waveoffs of fire retardant drop
By JOSEPH B. FRAZIER
Associated Press Writer
PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) -- A TV news helicopter covering a retardant drop on a wildfire near The Dalles violated fire flight regulations, causing two retardant runs to be waved off and delaying the third, final attempt to drop the chemical, an Oregon Department of Forestry official said Tuesday.
Jim Ziobro, state aviation specialist and safety officer for the agency, said the pilot for Portland station KGW had been briefed on the rules shortly before entering the fire zone.
He said a report of Friday's incident was being faxed Tuesday to the Federal Aviation Administration.
Ziobro said helicopter pilots must remain in radio contact and stay at least 500 feet above the highest aircraft.
"He didn't do that," Ziobro said, adding that at times the helicopter was under the plane trying to make the drop.
Firefighters said the tankers were notified of the helicopter's presence by people on the ground. Ziobro said the helicopter pilot did not have the required frequencies needed stay in contact with fire managers.
He said other media aircraft covering the fire caused no problems.
"They followed the rules and they got what they needed," he said.
The KGW pilot, Daron Larsen, was angered by the accusations. Larsen said he was at roughly the same altitude as the aerial firefighters and would have moved higher if he had been told.
He said there was no temporary flight restriction in place when he arrived, and, without one, he has the same right to the airspace as the fire crews.
"I did not break any rules; I want to make that 100 percent clear," said Larsen, who said he has been flying news helicopters for eight years, seven of them in Seattle.
Rod Gramer, KGW's executive news director, said fire officials had called the station with airspace restrictions and frequencies, but the helicopter already was en route home by the time it re-entered radio range. He questioned why fire managers would have called the station if the pilot had been briefed.
"I can guarantee you the pilot is responsible," Gramer said.
Ziobro said civilian aircraft, not just news helicopters, frequently show up over forest fires. He said some pilots don't realize that a loaded tanker is a heavy, lumbering plane that cannot maneuver easily and that the airspace over a retardant drop zone can be crowded with other firefighting aircraft and even smoke jumpers.
"Midair collisions are not forgiving," he said. "Nobody walks away from a midair crash."
The incident near The Dalles was not an isolated one.
Rich Webster an air tactical supervisor who flies ahead of tankers over a wildfire, said he couldn't believe what he saw during a wildfire in southern Oregon's Applegate Valley on July 22.
"Everywhere you looked there were six, seven little hang gliders and ultra lights," he said. "It was like moths attracted to a flame," he told the Medford Mail Tribune newspaper.
He said that retardant drop was delayed until the civilian craft were shooed out of the area. The same thing happened June 10 with a news helicopter at a fire near Gold Hill.
Webster said aircraft 12 nautical miles out from a fire zone must call for clearance. If granted, it must call again at seven miles.
"Someone is going to be drastically hurt if it continues," Phil Hufstader, the Medford air tanker base manager for the Oregon Department of Forestry, told the Mail Tribune.
He said he has about 11 minutes from when a call comes in to get planes in the air, nowhere near enough time to notify all civilian airstrips in the region, and that civilian pilots simply should stay away.
He said there are lots of new pilots. "They are taking 'looky-looks' and getting right square in the middle of the fire. It's causing a real safety problem for us."
By JOSEPH B. FRAZIER
Associated Press Writer
PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) -- A TV news helicopter covering a retardant drop on a wildfire near The Dalles violated fire flight regulations, causing two retardant runs to be waved off and delaying the third, final attempt to drop the chemical, an Oregon Department of Forestry official said Tuesday.
Jim Ziobro, state aviation specialist and safety officer for the agency, said the pilot for Portland station KGW had been briefed on the rules shortly before entering the fire zone.
He said a report of Friday's incident was being faxed Tuesday to the Federal Aviation Administration.
Ziobro said helicopter pilots must remain in radio contact and stay at least 500 feet above the highest aircraft.
"He didn't do that," Ziobro said, adding that at times the helicopter was under the plane trying to make the drop.
Firefighters said the tankers were notified of the helicopter's presence by people on the ground. Ziobro said the helicopter pilot did not have the required frequencies needed stay in contact with fire managers.
He said other media aircraft covering the fire caused no problems.
"They followed the rules and they got what they needed," he said.
The KGW pilot, Daron Larsen, was angered by the accusations. Larsen said he was at roughly the same altitude as the aerial firefighters and would have moved higher if he had been told.
He said there was no temporary flight restriction in place when he arrived, and, without one, he has the same right to the airspace as the fire crews.
"I did not break any rules; I want to make that 100 percent clear," said Larsen, who said he has been flying news helicopters for eight years, seven of them in Seattle.
Rod Gramer, KGW's executive news director, said fire officials had called the station with airspace restrictions and frequencies, but the helicopter already was en route home by the time it re-entered radio range. He questioned why fire managers would have called the station if the pilot had been briefed.
"I can guarantee you the pilot is responsible," Gramer said.
Ziobro said civilian aircraft, not just news helicopters, frequently show up over forest fires. He said some pilots don't realize that a loaded tanker is a heavy, lumbering plane that cannot maneuver easily and that the airspace over a retardant drop zone can be crowded with other firefighting aircraft and even smoke jumpers.
"Midair collisions are not forgiving," he said. "Nobody walks away from a midair crash."
The incident near The Dalles was not an isolated one.
Rich Webster an air tactical supervisor who flies ahead of tankers over a wildfire, said he couldn't believe what he saw during a wildfire in southern Oregon's Applegate Valley on July 22.
"Everywhere you looked there were six, seven little hang gliders and ultra lights," he said. "It was like moths attracted to a flame," he told the Medford Mail Tribune newspaper.
He said that retardant drop was delayed until the civilian craft were shooed out of the area. The same thing happened June 10 with a news helicopter at a fire near Gold Hill.
Webster said aircraft 12 nautical miles out from a fire zone must call for clearance. If granted, it must call again at seven miles.
"Someone is going to be drastically hurt if it continues," Phil Hufstader, the Medford air tanker base manager for the Oregon Department of Forestry, told the Mail Tribune.
He said he has about 11 minutes from when a call comes in to get planes in the air, nowhere near enough time to notify all civilian airstrips in the region, and that civilian pilots simply should stay away.
He said there are lots of new pilots. "They are taking 'looky-looks' and getting right square in the middle of the fire. It's causing a real safety problem for us."
???
Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:44 pm
The TFR listed is near Madras. This was at The Dalles. It's about 90 miles east of Portland off the Columbia River.
hopefully Larry Kraus can commet if he's not out bombing helos
hopefully Larry Kraus can commet if he's not out bombing helos
Last edited by Jack Cook on Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:56 pm
Sounds like a news pilot trying his best to CYA after blowing off a TFR or not accurately reporting his situation/location
Tom P.
Tom P.
Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:59 pm
Borate all of 'em!!!
Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:41 pm
Hmm, that's what I would do, get into something where the wing goes faster that the fuselage and go and get in the way of a fire bomber. 
Lynn
Lynn
Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:54 pm
As a Vol Firefighter I was always told that the I.C . Incident Command is that of God at a Fire and Nobody but Nobody can over rule. Saw a Mayor get arrested one time bacause he was also the Local Radio News man and was right in the middle of us trying to fight a GAS STATION FIRE Told us that he was the Mayor and it was his town the Fire Chief told him that might be true But the Fire was his FIRE and ordered him arrested he was ! Seem that this should of happen at this fire too!
Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:10 pm
I do alot of flying in remote areas of the west at low altitude in a fairly high performance aircraft. TFRs can be tricky because they can be issued while you are flying and you won't hear about them until after the fact. However, anyone with a lick of sense seeing smoke from a forest or brush fire knows that air tanker operations are a real possibility, TFR or not. You just stay clear until you know what is going on.
It seems to me the news copters have cameras with incredible lenses on them that can zoom in close from thousands of feet away. Without knowing any particulars, maybe the media pilot was trying to get a different angle than those normally broadcast from above the drop. Regardless of the actual facts behind this incident, it paints general aviation in a poor light.
It seems to me the news copters have cameras with incredible lenses on them that can zoom in close from thousands of feet away. Without knowing any particulars, maybe the media pilot was trying to get a different angle than those normally broadcast from above the drop. Regardless of the actual facts behind this incident, it paints general aviation in a poor light.
Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:16 am
I'm SO sick of these GD "journalists". 
They get in the way while they're "embedded" in warzones, now they're impeding firebombers!? They think they're so effing important, but they're just whores. 
I think journalism used to be an honorable profession a long time ago, but it has now degenerated into a stinking morass of depraved, ratings-hungry (translation: MONEY) dirtbags.
Dave
They get in the way while they're "embedded" in warzones, now they're impeding firebombers!? They think they're so effing important, but they're just whores.
I think journalism used to be an honorable profession a long time ago, but it has now degenerated into a stinking morass of depraved, ratings-hungry (translation: MONEY) dirtbags.
Dave
Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:42 am
jpeters wrote:Maybe the firebomber pilot should've dropped his load directly over the chopper.
John
I was thinking the same thing.
