any warbird recoveries in burma?

[camshaw]

just wondering if there has ever been any plans to recover any fallen warbirds from the burma area? There's got to be a few still sitting out in the jungles somewhere? Any ideas?

[bdk]

First of all, Burma is now calling themselves Myanmar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myanmar

There has been an annual drive in old Jeeps on the remains of the Burma road for the past 6 or 8 years now. Considering the amount of hardware that went down that road surprisingly they were unable to spot any remnants of wartime activity.

http://www.milweb.net/News/burma/
http://www.burmastar.org.uk/new_page_13.htm

There have been some remains recovered from planes that went down over "The Hump," but those were mostly from aircraft like C-46s and in very rugged and inaccessable areas.

[muddyboots]

I wonder, if someone had real access to it, if satalite imagery might not help...One day we'll be able to

[JDK]

I wonder, if someone had real access to it, if satalite imagery might not help...One day we'll be able to

One word answer - jungle.

Once the trees have all been logged, we might be able to see what's there - in the meantime it was hard enough to see what was under the canopy at the time of any crashes, with fresh scars on the trees etc, as against now.

[muddyboots]

We recently used it to find lost civilizations in South America. Old ruins appear red on an infrared scan-seen THROUGH the canopy. So worked rock can show up. However, I don't believe we can do it to a scale THAT small just yet on metal. But being the budding anthropologist that I am, and having been drawn into it by doing MIA digs in Korea with the Army, I'd like to think I might find myself working at it some day...

But don't expect it tomorrow. Better to encourage folks to do scouting trips to likely areas, eh?

[JDK]

We recently used it to find lost civilizations in South America. Old ruins appear red on an infrared scan-seen THROUGH the canopy.

Good point. That kind of work goes back to first world war research that led to archaeological exploration - crop markings in the UK and Middle East being some items explored in 1917 - 25, using biplanes and large plate arial cameras. Using different films probably goes back further than we realise too!

However old ruins are large, interfere with the growth pattern of the plants and exist in previously human-cleared ground - none of which applies to crashed aircraft. On the other hand airfields would be more evident.

From my limited knowledge of Burma, the air war there was relatively sparse, and wreck utilisation at the time was higher than other theatres due to worse supply liknes - in other words, fewer crashes (hard to find) and less in any airfield dumps (easy to find, but slim pickings).


The human fascination (obsession?) with treasure hunting IMHO is a major distraction, in vintage aircraft terms, from more worthwhile effort.

There is a lot of 'rare' and 'missing' aircraft out there - in reserve collections, under-funded or under-supported museums, for certain, as well as possibly in the jungle or under water. Let's put a lot more energy there, rather than glory hunting what's often now just identity and scrap.

I put the case as an 'extreme' - I'm not advocating stopping all wreck hunting, it just remains highly-attractive low-value preservation as against the high-value low-interest (read boring) work of actually supporting your local museum or owner - who is almost certain to appreciate and utilise the work or cash better than another expedition.

Just some thoughts.

[L. Thompson]

My dad went to high school in Prescott, AZ with a fellow who later went to work with Northrop and was a key engineer in their F-89 Scorpian program. He stayed on with them for a full career. He had dinner with us in the mid-80's and said at the time Northrop was looking for a P-61 for a planned display and had chased substantial rumors of a few in Burma. Red tape then prevented them from getting too far with the search.

[Versatile]

We recently used it to find lost civilizations in South America. Old ruins appear red on an infrared scan-seen THROUGH the canopy.

Good point. That kind of work goes back to first world war research that led to archaeological exploration - crop markings in the UK and Middle East being some items explored in 1917 - 25, using biplanes and large plate arial cameras. Using different films probably goes back further than we realise too!

However old ruins are large, interfere with the growth pattern of the plants and exist in previously human-cleared ground - none of which applies to crashed aircraft. On the other hand airfields would be more evident.

From my limited knowledge of Burma, the air war there was relatively sparse, and wreck utilisation at the time was higher than other theatres due to worse supply liknes - in other words, fewer crashes (hard to find) and less in any airfield dumps (easy to find, but slim pickings).


The human fascination (obsession?) with treasure hunting IMHO is a major distraction, in vintage aircraft terms, from more worthwhile effort.

There is a lot of 'rare' and 'missing' aircraft out there - in reserve collections, under-funded or under-supported museums, for certain, as well as possibly in the jungle or under water. Let's put a lot more energy there, rather than glory hunting what's often now just identity and scrap.

I put the case as an 'extreme' - I'm not advocating stopping all wreck hunting, it just remains highly-attractive low-value preservation as against the high-value low-interest (read boring) work of actually supporting your local museum or owner - who is almost certain to appreciate and utilise the work or cash better than another expedition.

Just some thoughts.

My thoughtS are. Good! You stay at home and i go do as i wish IMO

[RMAllnutt]

Well... not exactly crash remains, but five complete spitfires/seafires did come out of Burma/Myanmar in the last 10 years.

Cheers. Richard

[rwdfresno]

I put the case as an 'extreme' - I'm not advocating stopping all wreck hunting, it just remains highly-attractive low-value preservation as against the high-value low-interest (read boring) work of actually supporting your local museum or owner - who is almost certain to appreciate and utilise the work or cash better than another expedition.

No offense, but your comments sound a little elitist. People think they know better how others should pursue their hobbies, and spend their money. Personally you wouldn't find me hiking into any wilderness to fetch a bent up scrap aileron on of a tree, but if others do it why should I care? What if someone was to say "Perhaps if people didn't waste so much time and effort into research books for model builders we could concentrate on restoring real aircraft?" That would be just as inaccurate as what you said.

[Nathan]

Personally you wouldn't find me hiking into any wilderness to fetch a bent up scrap aileron on of a tree

Boy, at this point I would.

[camshaw]

Now don't everybody go and get all mad at eachother! I was just wondering if planes still existed in these kind of remote places..Its my opinion, that they all should be preserved whenever possible,by government or private party I don't care..Just save them from the elements to help instill into this new generation how much blood was shed for the free countries of this world..I'm afraid that my country the good old USA might be raising a bunch of whimps who don't appreciate the sacrifices of my forefathers..Save the aircraft,ships,tanks,guns and thank a veteran...that said,who wants to go to Burma's jungles eah?

[JDK]

Gee, it was a thought and a comment - not an instruction! Last time I checked there wasn't anyone in charge.

Another thought (please skip if you are easily offended) is I can think of (from my experience in warbird magazine editorial work) a significant number of fraudulent or unrealistic 'recovery' efforts that have solicited effort and cash where no actual real recovery was likely, possible, and in a couple of cases not even intended. While many museums (and private collections) could manage resources better, very few (albeit some) have actually acted fraudulently, not burnt up resources at the rate a recovery effort must do.

Of any given ten recovery efforts, a significant number fail; and others bring back mostly scrap - sometimes restored, sometimes not. However it is an absolute certainty that any recovery needs to be followed up with a major restoration or conservation project; which will often require as much or more effort or cash. Part of my point (which is just something to think about) was that there's recoveries that right now need conservation and restoration - but they're in store.

So, you can venture money and effort on something that's got great bragging rights down the bar, but a high chance of using the lot and recovering nothing, or you could do something that has no bragging rights in the bar but is guaranteed to improve the number of preserved aircraft on show. Of course you can please yourself, but some basic study of the odds first doesn't hurt!

Richard - good point, and it makes sense than many future recoveries aren't going to be by satellite and bushwacking, but by the consumption of tea, biscuits, cash, barter and patience!

rwdfresno, of course I'm an elitist - swimming among the mass vegetating in front of Big Brother or CSI Des Moines holds no attraction. I'm also not interested in just going 'that's nice' or 'that's awesome' here, but working with others to achieve something useful, and that sometimes means being awkward and proposing a different view.

I've no intention of telling people what they can and can't do, but it's also not hard to figure out odds, good and bad ideas, and to spot romance masquerading as useful adventure. My point was just a point of view - it's not 'inaccurate'; it's just taking a hard look at a 'wouldn't it be nice' thought, which some regard as nasty. I'm the last person to stop anyone - I've actually assisted some myself, and good luck to them all.

Take just two types - Supermarine Walrus and P-61. In both cases there 'might be' others out there to recover. With the Walrus, like most rare types, the recoveries have been made (from Thame and Antarctica) and several restorations undertaken - yet one example just needs cash (and maybe effort) to return it to the sky. With the P-61 there's an example in a museum that could be better looked after, but would require a major secret diplomatic effort to 'recover', yet it's the second best bet. (lots of hard, uninteresting work, high risk or total cash loss, etc.) The best bet for a flying P-61 is at MAAM, and I'm sure they'd rather you help them than wander the world trying to recover a wreck. Of course if you turn up with that hypothetical aileron out of a tree, or the remains of a mountain wreck, they'd be very appreciative. But if you tell them you've go a team and a load of cash, wouldn't it be smarter to help them rather than finding another wreck? - But remember, it's your money, your mileage may vary, wrecks in imaginations appear larger in the mirror etc.

Someone will mention Glacier Girl eventually, so I will. For the magnificent effort of recovering and then restoring that aircraft - an amazing achievement, which we remember, quite rightly, it's often overlooked there were a half dozen expeditions that returned with zip, nada, zilch. Yet there are people proposing to go get more from Bolero! Well, we know what some of those aircraft are like, and in some cases it's not worth it. IF someone pulls it off, I'll lead the cheering, but I'd not put a red cent toward it. My money gets a better return.

As to your inaccurate remark about 'books for model builders', that cheap, and certainly inaccurate, and for the record... The Lysander book and the research has, and currently is, assisting restorations in several countries to restore Lysanders to the air and into accurate schemes, with exchanging information I've gathered from each other and archives in the UK, Canada, Australia and elsewhere. I've no skill or delusions I can do what the Gary Austins do, but I've thanks from engineers and crew working on these aircraft for a small amount of help I've managed. It may not be big, clever or impressive , but it certainly has helped restore aircraft to the sky as against being a probable total loss. Place your bets.

Cheers

P-61
http://www.maam.org/p61.html

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... hp?t=13535

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... hp?t=13826

Supermarine Walrus
http://www.projectwalrus.com/

http://www.defence.gov.au/RAAF/raafmuse ... walrus.htm

[Rhinelander]

Well, I think it is fun to tromp through the forest and jungle.

I have found many small or micro pyramids and other interesting structures and items in central america.

I would go to Burma in a heart beat for the hell of it if I could, darn the red tape! Sometimes the adventure is more fun than the end game.

BTW, using the satalites to find the ruins is more than 20 years old, just think of what they have now

[JDK]

You go for it!

And for the record, my admiration for those who pull off recoveries is as high as anyone else's here.