Warbird Information Exchange

Hi all,

When Ed Jurist recovered the 24 or so Sea Furies, there was also about forty tons of spares to go with it. I have read that this also included some spare fuselages and/or wings.

Have any of these spares been used to build up new aircraft, or are these spares still current to provide for the airworthy fleet?

Cees

A few years ago we had a Tallichet Iraqi Fury hulk at MAPS. I went through the thing and found something very interesting...each major section was from a different airplane. Fuselage from one. Center section from another. Left wing from one plane and right wing from a fourth plane. It made me wonder if these planes were sold not as complete airplanes, but as a "kit" of parts. Could this be possible? If so this might, at least to me, explain the rather murky histories of surviving Furys.

Btw, I think N19SF #2 used major parts from an Iraqi Fury in its rebuild. So some were/are kicking around.

Jim

Same thing happened to the Indonesian F-51's recovered in the 2nd half of the 70's - many restorations used parts and components of former Indonesian airframes - only a few emerged as restoration itself. This is also due to the somewhat 'fishy' identities as a result of clandestine channels of procurement by Indonesia in first place. Instead of taking the challenge to provide clean documentation for the FAA, those airframes were used as supporting material to restore "existing" airframes, even when those were totally w/o in crashes.
The hulks and components were sold as kits, and I believe the best offer had also the best pick.

A similar thing seems to have happened with the Baghdad Furies; take the best parts and knock them together to an airworthy machine and use the balance for various projects and spares source.

This actually always has happened, also when such aircraft were still in service; cannibalize some airframes to keep others going. Basically a good and logical concept - for us historians rather frustrating though.

And there is the basic question again - when can an aircraft be considered as 'original' , i.e how much of the original structure has to be still existant in an airframe ?

Or let's ask the other way round: How many historic aircraft (airworthy) still exist who haven't seen major rebuilds incorporating 'foreign' parts(from various airframes / sources) or newly built components ?

I for one am happy to see historic aircraft in the air, restored to almost perfect stock condition.

Martin / Swiss Mustangs

Hi all--

Oh boy...one of the more loaded questions again! At this late date, one can fairly assume, I think, that a very good proportion of flyable WWII-era machines have become composites to at least some degree. As has been pointed out...that tended to begin while the aircraft were still in service. I've seen photos from wartime, for instance, showing a B-17G with the front half in bare metal and the back half OD/grey; the whole rear end had been cannibalized from a grounded (older) Fort. And the most singular such pic (seen before the days of digital imaging) showed a B-24 onto which had been grafted the entire nose from a B-17. (Heaven only knows why...! They did, after all, mass-produce both types!)

This issue is why, for instance, Sandy Thomson is operating a Sea Fury (and by all accounts absolutely loving it), with no paintjob at all save for a red spinner. Sandy told me he just isn't interested in putting the Fury in colours that imply originality when it is really a "parts" airplane. (Plus, it does look kind of cool and mysterious as it is...even if people do think it's an as-yet-unpainted P-47!) Many other owners would probably view this issue the other way up--make a "parts" warbird into the spitting image of a famous (and long-lost) original. Different strokes. In my own view...if it walks, quacks and flies like a duck, that, to me, pretty much makes it a duck! As has also been mentioned above, I just think it's tremendous that enthusiasts like myself can still see and hear these great machines firsthand, instead of only in old film clips. I remember seeing the TF-51 Mustang "Scat VII" at Geneseo a decade or so ago. Saw on the accompanying signage that she had formerly been the wild Lear-winged Reno racer "Vendetta". Nearly passed out from sheer delight. Realized, on reflection, that it was probable by this stage that little if any of the real "Scat VII" could possibly have been retained. And, standing there looking at an aircraft at least clearly linked to one of Robin Olds' P-51s...I did not care! It was simply a thrill to see it at all.

S.

WHen I was a kid my dad used tto do business in Orlando in the 70's and sometimes I would accompany him. We always flew into Orlando's Executive Airport which was also known as Herndon Airfield . Showalter Aviation owned most of the hangars and there were warbirds everywhere in Florida back then. We would always stop by one of the hangars where there was a bare metal fuselage of a PBY-5A sitting there rotting and it was neat to look at it. Later a car dealer named Scott Smith rented a hangar across the street from the PBY that he shared with Johnny Williams. Both of these guys had P-51D's and other aircraft. THe rumor was that there were a bunch of Sea Furies inside! One day we went by there and the doors were open and Johnny Williams had bought one of them from Tallichet for $25,000. Johnny had just recently severely damaged his Mustang "Color Me Gone" making a dead stick landing. He was the first buyer and was told to " pick any one you want". I think there were 24 Furies, painted blue on the bottom, two tone brown and sand camo on top with the triangle emblem on the sides of the fuselages. There were three variants, the single cockpit fighter version, the dual control with the elongated canopy( like Dreadnaught) and then a couple that had a bizarre arrangement of two completely individual canopies one in front of the other! The deal was for $25 grand you could pick out any one you wanted and they were supposed to have been in great shape when crated and so you could have one flying in a couple of weeks! A guy named Adams that was on the U.S.aerobatic team was the second buyer and then maybe another three or so went out west to become racers. WHile we were there a half dozen mechanics were there stripping things out of the cockpits and engine access areas and I remember thinking the last few tp sell would be very difficult to get back in the air. The aircraft fuselages were on shipping pallettes, the wings were stored stacked to the ceiling and there were extra engines cowled and all on pallets. There were countless dozens of drop tanks, painted red lying everywhere. Propellors were stacked against the wall in wooden shipping crates with a few lying carellessly on the hangar floor. Some of the aircraft damage included puncture holes in the fuselages and elsewhere that were probably done by the forklift blades. THere was one Fury that had crumpled skin between the engine and cockpit and the thought was that it had been dropped when off loaded from the ship. Everything was really dusty.
Johnny's Fury took several months and another $25 k to get going and he had it at Oshkosh that year. If I remember correctly, he augered in that Fall at the CAF show dogfighting the Me-109(Buchon) . Apparently it was an accelerated stall/ into a spin at low level. Around that same year or so another Sea Fury owned by Bob Friedman crashed on takeoff. He had recently sold his FG1-D Corsair. The word was that the opposite torque and extra power of his Sea Fury got away from him. In Johnny's estate a P-51A project was sold . I have never heard anything before or since about his A or D model mustang projects. THey were both great guys and nice to this 11 year old kid.

Rob,

I can confirm that. At least one of Dave's Furys was at MAPS till about two or three years ago.

Jim

A couple of shots of Johnny's Fury at Hamiton back in the day.

Jim

Sorry the above two Guests were me...forgot to log in.

Jim

Jack Rogers had 4 Furies, 2 I know were part of these

37733 FB10 N56SF crashed in Canada Carey Moore
37757 FB Mk 11 WN480 N60SF

A don't have a clue as to where the other 2 came from

Steve