Warbird Information Exchange

Hey Bill (and anyone else who might know),

I was wondering if you could help me figure out some performance numbers for the Spitfire. Obviously with each version things will be different, but let's take yours for example.

Looking through lots of sources I haven't been able to find any good answers for take-off and landing distances for any mark of Spitfire.

What would you say is the normal take-off and landing distances with your Spitfire? As well, what is the shortest length runway that you would consider taking your Spit into?

By the way, have you been able to get in touch with Bob Jens about his Spit?

Cheers,

David

Daveymac. The pilot manuals don't give runway distances. There is a good video dvd from Steve Rister of me and others landing at BKD show in 1990; the runway is 4998 and I am using about half landing. Takeoff is probably about 1000', if you use a lot of power it would fly below 70k. Normally I'd prefer to have 3500' for landing. If it has clear approaches and is at sea level, 3000 is doable, but I prefer not to have to brake much. Being a dual control and 2 seater,with the 2 stage supercharger mine is a little heavier than some. I'm sure the very light MK I through V can be landed in under 2000' roll. One of my best landings was a Steamboat, Co. It is 4400', but at 7411 altitude. That landing was a 10, and I turned off near midfield with some braking. The late 20 series is a different bird, very high performance and a lot heavier. I make a straight in short final rather than curve or slip like the Brits. The runway where I have my annuals is only 48' wide, so I need to line up straight. The Brits have some fairly short runways, but they seem pretty wide. The Spit was designed for 3 point landings so that is my aim, with 80k on short final.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

David, Rayborn Thompson keeps his plane, a Mk IX single seat version, at a private airstrip in Houston. It is listed as 3300 feet, grass and there are power lines at the north end.I have not landed there yet. The Russell Group in Canada operate their MkIX, Me109, and Hurricane from no more than 3000' grass, it's probably 100' wide.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Hey Bill,

Thank you for your details answers! The reason I was asking is to figure out the likeliness of a Spitfire ever being able to make it into and out of Langley Airport, BC where my musuem (The Canadian Museum of Flight) is located. The longest runway is 2350' or so, but they're planning on extending it to 2500'. I imagine that's still not quite enough to operate a Spitfire at. We don't have a spit, but I'm doing some longterm planning considerations for my museum and figure an airport with such short runways would be a major detriment to hosting "warbird" airshows as well as operating anything bigger than a Harvard within our own collection.

How does the Spitfire's T/O and LDG distances compare to a P-40 or Mustang? I imagine they're very similar.

Geez I wish I could convince the board of directors to move the CMF to Boundary Bay Airport where there's a great big WWII hangar and two 5000' runways....

Thanks again Bill,

David

My guess is a P-40 takes more runway to takeoff, I've only had one brief hop years ago. The 51 is heavier than a Merlin Spit and Spit wing has a lower stall speed and more low speed lift, so I'm sure the 51 needs a little longer takeoff. You see a lot of 51s, come in pretty fast and use a lot of runway, but they can land pretty short when light. Santa Paula is listed as only 2650', may have a little overrun, and I saw a Cal. pilot land there. He came over the trees pretty slow, cut the power and made a 3pt. touchdown, and did not even use the full length to stop. I didn't know him, but he certainly knew what he was doing. If the approaches are clear, and especially if there is a little overrun, you might land an early Spit, a I thru V, on just 2500, but it is pretty tight. I live at 8000', so my view is a little different than someone who flies a lot at sea level. You can bring a Spitfire in pretty slow, 80 mph is plenty in a single seat IX, but the nose is up so you can't see to touch down that accurately right on the end. I don't have much experience with turning or slipping approaches, as some of the Brits do.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Thank again Bill. I appreciate it.

Cheers,

David

Hi Davey,
Just a follow on to Bill's highly qualified comments, as he said the Spitfire was originally designed to be landed three point - also bear in mind that was to be on all over grass fields, being what the RAF had and used at that point, so the design was for into wind three-point flap assisted landings - hence the two position flap on the Spitfire.

The original pilots notes etc. would be with that presumption, and here I'm referring to Mk.I, II, V. By the time the two stage Merlin and certainly the Griffon powered examples came in, it was a different game.

Shuttleworth have operated their Spitfire Mk.V AR501 from Old Warden since about 1975, and their Sea Hurricane for a while now. Old Warden's runways used to be notoriously short, bumpy and grass. They're still grass, but otherwise better now.

Incidentally, why not focus on a Hurricane? More Canadian history (1 / 401 Sqn RCAF, Battle of Britain, Canadian production etc.) and a more benign ground handling regimen than the Spitfire.

If you want OW data, I'm sure it could be provided, and in my experience, you get good answers from certain operators in the UK if you ask a sensible specific question. PM me if you'd like some pointers.

HTH

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Here's the data from the Shuttleworth website regarding the length of the runway 21/03 (the main one used), and an image of Old Warden from Google Earth:

Runway 03: TRA - 511m. (1676ft) EDA - 628m (2060ft) Runway 21: TRA - 628m EDA - 648m (2125ft)



Granted, it now has an extension, but the P51, P40, Spitfire V (along with a PRXI & a couple of MKIX's), Seafire & Hurricane, all operate out of there without problem (as you can see, some of these were shot on a calm day), as can be seen from these videos:

Spitfire V & Sea Hurricane I (Rwy 21)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJpE9C-34l4

P40M (Rwy 03 Take Off, 21 Landing)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMZNOe6-770

P51D (Rwy 21)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THQGOLirsu0

Seafire XVII (Rwy 03 Take Off, 21 Landing)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyktbHPgvWI

Of course, like most of todays Warbirds, they are usually a lot lighter than a fully equipped wartime example.

I'm sure I have some data on the take off & landing distances for the Spitfire somwhere from wartime reports but don't have them to hand at present.

I do however have them for a Hurricane (IIB) under standard atmospheric conditions which where:

280 yards w/ 5 degrees flap & 235 with 35 degrees flap

Under test conditions (wind 9mph, pressure 29.99, ground temp 17C) they were:

210 yards & 195 with the same flap settings as above and an AUW of 7333lbs.

According to Brian Smith, who used to fly MH434 (a MKIX) on a regular basis, a 500 meter (1640ft) strip is fine for someone who is familiar with the aircraft.

Bill, interesting what you say about the P51's coming in quite hot and using a lot of runway in the U.S, and that's the one thing I've noticed when seeing footage of P51's landing there.

Not all the time, but this, along with a wheel landing seems to be the preference, where as here, the approach is flown lower and they are usually three pointed on or a tailwheel low landing done.

I believe that one of the commentators Flying Legends mentioned that it's a running joke amongst UK based P51 pilots that their American counterparts would never get one down at say, Duxford, because they fly their approaches so hot!

Cheers

Paul

Those maps and videos are great, everyone should see them. I notice pretty hard braking once the planes are down firmly, especially by the P-40 and the Seafire. I have been to Old Warden, but not during the show. I'd sure love to fly that MkV there.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Some of the best fighter show videos I've seen, especially the one of the P-40, shows what it can do in the right hands. Every Wixer ought to tune onto those sites.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Glad you enjoyed them Bill.

There is a hi res version of the P40 display (complete with stereo sound) on the Hanger 11 site (the operators of the P40 & P51):

http://www.hangar11.co.uk/

Cheers

Paul

Thanks for a mightily comprehensive reply, Paul!

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Brian is a very skilled and experienced pilot and I would say this was the bare minimum for someone at his level in a Spitfire. For the P-51 we will not go anywhere that is less than 800m (2,623 feet).

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Warbird Colour - Authentic historic aircraft finishes http://www.warbirdcolour.co.uk