Cessna Warbird Wanted (U-17 or ???)
Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:05 pm
My CAF Wing http://www.rockymountainwingcaf.org is in need of a new project. We would like to better restore the radio operator's area in our TBM Avenger's fuselage, however that would remove the cargo area which we need for operating at airshows. We transport a large set of steps that allow visitors to easily view the "flight deck" as it were.
Ideally we are looking for a squadron "hack" with low operating cost, easy for "average" pilots to fly (as another inducement to join us) and can carry 4 people with a good cargo load. That way we can also fly additional helpers at our airshows too, and give Vietnam-era veterans and youngsters another view from another war. Of course a Beech 18/C-45 would be swell, but we want LOW operating cost and AVERAGE pilot needs. It does need to be a warbird.
Since the CAF recently expanded its warbird definition horizons to include Korea and Vietnam era, the idea of the Cessna 180/185 in its military configuration as a U-17 comes quickly to mind, although I am open to other suggestions. One can do wonders with paint and fake rockets.
The bottom line of this post is that if you, or somebody you know, might be in the tax position to donate a suitable aircraft we would ensure it receives VERY loving care and that the donor is properly acknowledged. The CAF is a 501(c)(3) non-profit and volunteer museum. All donations are tax deductible. Thank you in advance.
Keep 'em flying.
Ideally we are looking for a squadron "hack" with low operating cost, easy for "average" pilots to fly (as another inducement to join us) and can carry 4 people with a good cargo load. That way we can also fly additional helpers at our airshows too, and give Vietnam-era veterans and youngsters another view from another war. Of course a Beech 18/C-45 would be swell, but we want LOW operating cost and AVERAGE pilot needs. It does need to be a warbird.
Since the CAF recently expanded its warbird definition horizons to include Korea and Vietnam era, the idea of the Cessna 180/185 in its military configuration as a U-17 comes quickly to mind, although I am open to other suggestions. One can do wonders with paint and fake rockets.
The bottom line of this post is that if you, or somebody you know, might be in the tax position to donate a suitable aircraft we would ensure it receives VERY loving care and that the donor is properly acknowledged. The CAF is a 501(c)(3) non-profit and volunteer museum. All donations are tax deductible. Thank you in advance.
Keep 'em flying.
Last edited by duncan on Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:44 pm
I think that you are on the right track, but the U-17's were not armed. Here is an exerpt from "Cessna Warbirds", bu Walt Shiel:
THE MILITARY 180
Between 1962 and 1970, the USAF purchased 17 Model 180E and Model 180H aircraft "off the shelf" to be provided to several foreign countries under the Military Assistance Program (MAP). By that time, the engine had been changed to the 230-horsepower Continental O-470-R, boosting maximum speed from 165 MPH to 170 MPH. The only change from the basic civilian aircraft for these military contracts was the military exterior paint scheme. The USAF purchased eight aircraft in 1962 and three each in 1966, 1967, and 1970. The following Cessna constructor numbers and USAF serial numbers were assigned to these military Model 180s, designated U-17C by the military…
THE MILITARY 180
Between 1962 and 1970, the USAF purchased 17 Model 180E and Model 180H aircraft "off the shelf" to be provided to several foreign countries under the Military Assistance Program (MAP). By that time, the engine had been changed to the 230-horsepower Continental O-470-R, boosting maximum speed from 165 MPH to 170 MPH. The only change from the basic civilian aircraft for these military contracts was the military exterior paint scheme. The USAF purchased eight aircraft in 1962 and three each in 1966, 1967, and 1970. The following Cessna constructor numbers and USAF serial numbers were assigned to these military Model 180s, designated U-17C by the military…
Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:48 pm
U-17's had "willy petes" ... We restored my 180 over 20 years ago representing a 1965 U-17C of the RVNAF ... http://home.flash.net/~wsanders/
Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:12 pm
Don't know much about the U-17, but I think the B and C models (based on early C-185 airframes) had hardpoints.
Sorry for the grainy shot, but here is a picture of some U-17Bs we tried to buy from the Turks several years ago (long, ugly story... I was lucky to get the deposit money for "my" U-17 back). I don't have a good picture of them, but these B models had hard points on the wings and the wiring / switches for them were still there:
And here are three shots of a U-17B on display somewhere (Asia?) with hard points / ordinance mounted.
Bela P. Havasreti
Sorry for the grainy shot, but here is a picture of some U-17Bs we tried to buy from the Turks several years ago (long, ugly story... I was lucky to get the deposit money for "my" U-17 back). I don't have a good picture of them, but these B models had hard points on the wings and the wiring / switches for them were still there:
And here are three shots of a U-17B on display somewhere (Asia?) with hard points / ordinance mounted.
Bela P. Havasreti
Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:34 pm
J.W. Duff carries a lot of military surplus aircraft from that era. You will have to pay a king's ransom for U-17 as C-180's and C-185's are really pricey right now. A cheaper alternative would be an LC-126, or Cessna 195. Of course, like the U-17 they are considered difficult to fly and land, and all of them have a damage history.
May I suggest considering the Cessna O-2. It has centerline thrust, twin engine reliability, and a nosegear. they are about half the price of a C-185 and parts are plentiful.
May I suggest considering the Cessna O-2. It has centerline thrust, twin engine reliability, and a nosegear. they are about half the price of a C-185 and parts are plentiful.
Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:05 pm
I have kicked about Duff's lot several times while working on various projects, and can agree on paying a "King's Ransom" there 
However if you can catch him on a good day...
Remember that the the focus of this request/thread is to look for donations - buying any aircraft, or a project, that is a whole different matter. Most CAF aircraft come from donations.
A C-195/LC-126 would be a great aircraft in the desired mission, besides a sweet sounding engine. Thanks for the idea. Now to find one...
There is a CAF O-2 available for "adoption" which I have looked over. It has two high-time engines, but is flyable and fully mil-equipped. This means that it seats three and most of the rear cargo area is used up with radio rack. I would not want to remove that rack and degrade the authenticity and value. Being a twin, and with the rocket hard points and full mil antenna farm, it is not exactly an "efficient" flyer either. Also not as good for inducing new "average" pilots to join the CAF because multi-engine ratings are a lot more expensive to acquire than tailwheel endorsements. We are still considering it though. It is currently at the CAF HQ museum behind which you can see our authentic Japanese Zero and Avro Shackleton patrol bomber.
However if you can catch him on a good day...
Remember that the the focus of this request/thread is to look for donations - buying any aircraft, or a project, that is a whole different matter. Most CAF aircraft come from donations.
A C-195/LC-126 would be a great aircraft in the desired mission, besides a sweet sounding engine. Thanks for the idea. Now to find one...
There is a CAF O-2 available for "adoption" which I have looked over. It has two high-time engines, but is flyable and fully mil-equipped. This means that it seats three and most of the rear cargo area is used up with radio rack. I would not want to remove that rack and degrade the authenticity and value. Being a twin, and with the rocket hard points and full mil antenna farm, it is not exactly an "efficient" flyer either. Also not as good for inducing new "average" pilots to join the CAF because multi-engine ratings are a lot more expensive to acquire than tailwheel endorsements. We are still considering it though. It is currently at the CAF HQ museum behind which you can see our authentic Japanese Zero and Avro Shackleton patrol bomber.
Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:38 pm
duncan wrote:Also not as good for inducing new "average" pilots to join the CAF because multi-engine ratings are a lot more expensive to acquire than tailwheel endorsements.
How ‘bout a T-41, aka 172?
I saw one up at American Wings a few weeks ago – not sure if it’s the real deal or a paint job, though.
Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:52 pm
I flew T-41's with the Colorado CAP before they were phased out. Too wimpy for SAR missions here. I don't think a T-41 qualifies as a "warbird". Is this available as a donation?
Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:31 pm
duncan wrote:Is this available as a donation?
Oops, I just mentioned that particular aircraft as an example. American Wings is a museum based at ANE. Link to their website.
I was up there to help a friend work on their plane, so I really didn’t have too much time to look around. Some of the aircraft on display are privately owned, which may be the case with that Cessna.
Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:52 pm
I did not see a T-41 on the AWAM website, but it would likely be either owned or donated to that museum. The "Richard Bong P-38" shown there piqued my interest. Is this P-38 simply restored to have Marge's nose-art picture, etc.? Not much info was provided on their website.
Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:38 pm
Duncan, the American Wings folks have a lot of neat stuff in their collection.
I was there just to help somebody out, so I really have no idea as to the museum organizational structure or their collection.
Image
I was there just to help somebody out, so I really have no idea as to the museum organizational structure or their collection.
Image
Last edited by Eric Friedebach on Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:51 pm
Not to seem like as smart ass, but unless the "Zero" in your picture has put on wheel pants for a chilly morning....it's a make believe Val! 
Seriously, I wish you all the best in acquiring a suitable aircraft.
Seriously, I wish you all the best in acquiring a suitable aircraft.
Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:00 am
IF you can stand the maintenance costs...how about a U-3A (Cessna 310B) or B (310D swept tail).
There are LOTS of projects out there and I saw a flyable one in Trade -a -Plane for $30,000.
Fuel burn rate isn't too bad...20ghp.
There are LOTS of projects out there and I saw a flyable one in Trade -a -Plane for $30,000.
Fuel burn rate isn't too bad...20ghp.
Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:57 am
JBoyle - GOOD EYES! you can fly with me any day! The CAF's real Zero was in the hangar when I was there and I spent quite a bit of time getting up close and personal with it. That memory clouded my vision when posting the picture.
Vital Spark - a "Blue Canoe" would be fine too. However not much of an operational advantage over the available O-2 other than speed. I also like the idea of a high wing a/c as that can be easily opened for display. Here again we are looking for a DONATION. If the $30,000 example in T-A-P has low time engines, I suppose that may be cheaper than two new $32,000 engines for the O-2!
Vital Spark - a "Blue Canoe" would be fine too. However not much of an operational advantage over the available O-2 other than speed. I also like the idea of a high wing a/c as that can be easily opened for display. Here again we are looking for a DONATION. If the $30,000 example in T-A-P has low time engines, I suppose that may be cheaper than two new $32,000 engines for the O-2!
Navion
Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:18 pm
How about a L-17. Its single engine, tricycle gear and should be fairly simple to introduce a novice to. They were used in Korea as squadron hacks and for transporting VIP's from base to base.
It wouldn't be an armed warbird, but neither were most of the C-47's built. A friend of mine has a L-17B that he has photos of in use in Korea during the first part of that unpleasantness.
I beg you though, if you do get one, please paint it in at least some what accurate markings. There are a lot out there in pseudo warbird paint(including invasion stripes with a star and bar AND a red center to the star) and it gets irksome.
It wouldn't be an armed warbird, but neither were most of the C-47's built. A friend of mine has a L-17B that he has photos of in use in Korea during the first part of that unpleasantness.
I beg you though, if you do get one, please paint it in at least some what accurate markings. There are a lot out there in pseudo warbird paint(including invasion stripes with a star and bar AND a red center to the star) and it gets irksome.