Warbird Information Exchange

Col. Rohr,
If you're planning on doing something like this, have you thought through all the possible post-event scenarios? Just thinking that there might be unintended consequences that should be addressed beforehand that haven't been thought of yet.
For instance. We wouldn't want to see a victory for aircraft owners only to see some goofball bunch go try and get those Devastators or some other rare bird and mess up.

Ryan

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Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

Hi fellas,

I have stepped back a bit from our discussions and given careful
consideration to our debate. I have taken to heart some of the
things you've said. In what follows I will use some quotes from
your previous posts.

Mike told me to "try and find out the facts before you fill in the
blanks". Well that's kinda what I've been trying to do in a way.
I am the first to admit I don't know everything about this entire
matter. As an example I didn't know of the Barber's Point affair. From some of your posts (not singling out Mike) it is apparent that there are gaps in your knowledge as well.

Dan said if I could "sway the policy I would be immortalized by
the board". Well one guy (certainly not me) can't do it alone.
Rob said "it's you that can make a difference" and "people like
ourselves need to start the ball rolling.

With that in mind I called Buddy Macon. Buddy and I have been
friends since before he became the deputy director, we are friends
now, and I hope we will continue to be friends when we're both
old retired guys. We discussed the overall situation extensively, he read the comments in this string and the NAV-OPS BB.

Buddy has asked me to invite any and all of you to come to the
museum and discuss the matter. We can tour the museum,
the restoration facility, and the building where the Lake Birds
are stored. (That's last one is for you Rob. You can count them,
see the anti-corrosion treatment done on them and inspect them.)

Then we can all sit down and discuss the matter. Nothing will be
off limits and everyone will be heard. Who sets a policy and who
does not, what is legal and what is not, who has the power to
change the policy and who does not are subjects to be addressed. You will also get to hear some interesting 'other side of the stories". All your concerns can be voiced, suggestions offered, and ideas expressed. Buddy wants your input.

Notes will be taken of these concerns and suggestions. They will
be forwarded to the appropriate powers-that-be in Washington.

We can hold this meeting at Cubi Point in the museum, at Buddy's
home, or if a lot of you want to come, at the Holiday Inn on Pen-
sacola Beach. Buddy will buy the first round of drinks and we'll go
from there.

The only ground rules I will set are that we are to discuss this as
gentlemen. There will no no name calling, invectives, or shouting.
(No in their face stuff Rob.)

You guys get together and decide when you would like to do this.
I will need a few days notice to take a day of vacation from my
job in Mobile as I want to be there too.

Fellas, I think this is the olive branch someone mentioned in an
earlier post. I can't promise you'll get everything you want but
I can promise you that you will be heard by NMNA's management.
This is an opportunity for us all to concentrate on what we share
in common and address the issues where we differ. We all want
these old birds preserved for furure generations. Let's come to-
gether and proceed together. I've done my part. The door is
open and you have a chance to change things for the better.

WHO WILL BE THE FIRST TO STEP UP AND JOIN ME??????

Blue skies,
Owen

DEMANDS??????..........DEMANDS?...........

Come on Rob, demands? The man has extended you an in-
vitation and this is how you respond? Dear God, can you
hear yourself? You sound like Jesse Jackson!

Buddy will read this and we'll see what he says but it sounds
to me like you're looking for a way to back out and blame it
on him.

He said anybody and everybody so that would include OLeary and your attourney. But I don't know about
getting folks from DC or USAFM.

Come on guys, who wants to make this work and not shout
demands????

Owen

HI AGAIN ,I THINK THIS COULD BE A POSITIVE STEP TO AT LEAST ALL MEET AND TRY TO GET THE BALL ROLLING!! AS FAR AS DEMANDS GO I THINK THAT AN AGRESSIVE HOSTILE ATTITUDE WOULD BE A TURN OFF AND EMBARASSMENT TO ALL INVOLVED .WE NEED TO ACT LIKE GENTLEMEN THIS IS AN OPERTUNITY THAT MANY OF US HAVE LONGED FOR.THIS IS NOT A COURT CASE ,NO ONES ON TRIAL SO AS FAR AS LAWYERS GO I WOULD FEEL MORE AT EASE IF THEY STAYED HOME!!THE MORE CASUAL THE MEETING THE MORE LIKELY THE REAL ISSUES COULD BE TALKED ABOUT.THE FOCUS SHOULD REMAIN ON THE ISSUE OF THE RECOVERY AND PRESEVATION OF ABANDON AIRCRAFT/ARTIFACTS BY THE PRIVATE SECTOR,A CHANGE OF CURRENT POLICY TO MAKE A/C THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN RECOVERED AS TRADING STOCK FOR MUCH RARER A/C TO FILL HOLES IN THIER COLLECTION!!THE MORE WE ARE INFORMED AND PREPAIRED THE BETTER CHANCE WE HAVE TO PROVIDE A POSITIVE AND PROFESIONAL VIEW POINT TO HELP MAKE A CHANGE THAT WE ALL THINK WOULD BENIFIT EVERYONE INVOLVED.WE NEED TO LOOK AT THIS AS AN ICE BREAKER TO GET THESE ISSUES DIRECTED TO THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM.PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE NO LOOSE CANNONS I THINK IF WE STICK TO THE POINT,ACT RESPONSIBLE,AND GET THE SUPPORT OF OTHER WARBIRD OWNERS/OPERATORS THAT HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT NAVAL POLICY TO BE THERE AS A SHOW OF SUPPORT AND TO PUT IN THIER THOUGHTS ON THE ISSUES AT HAND.IF YOU MISS THE BOAT BLAME YOURSELF.IF THIS HAPPENS LET THOSE WHO MAY HAVE A STAKE IN THIS KNOW IN ADVANCE SO AS TO MAKE PLANS TO BE THERE.I NEED A FEW WEEKS FOR SURE TO ARANGE MY SCHEDULE BUT WOULD LOVE TO BE THERE!!POST YOUR THOUGHTS LETS KEEP THIS A POSITIVE EXPERIENCE IT MAY BE THE FIRST BABY STEP TO A BETTER WORLD FOR ALL OF US!!THANKS MIKE

ONE LAST THING, THANKS FOR YOUR EFFORTS OWEN THIS MAYBE THE FIRST STEPPING STONE!!MIKE

Well said Mike. more ants have been caught with honey than vinegar.

I would dearly love to see some or all of the airframes recovered that have been mentioned.

the big question though for me is although you are talking a change to the policy within america, as is obvious from the dept of the interior bit, shouldn't there also be some form of freedom for for recovery outside the US as well?

not to mention some form of protection for the people who, sometimes through no fault of their own, have these airframes within their territory but are unable to take care of them, eg new guinea.

I'd hate to see various airframes simply grabbed from there and disappear with no reward to the people who have been their custodians for so long.

_________________
Jeff

Owen-

Can you contact me off board? tim@ensi.com

Thanks

Mike, you're very welcome. I hope we can all work together to
restore, preserve, and display these histortic warbirds. If a few
more wound up in the air again that wopuld be even better.

Come on fellas, whose with me?????

Blue skies,
Owen

Good evening,

This morning when I posted my "you're welcome" note to Mike.
I was getting ready to head to work and was a bit in a hurry.

What I should have said was you're welcome for my small role.
The idea of the sit down face to face let's talk this out was all
Buddy Macon. I understand there is some enthuiasm for this at
the museum. However, they were off today for Pres. Regan's
funeral so I didn't get a lot of first hand conversation.

We need to give credit where credit is due. The meeting is
Buddy's idea. He asked me to put it out there to y'all because
he knows I post here. I'm pretty much the messenger boy.

Blue skies,
Owen T

Rob and All,

A quick google on NHC revealed much. I, for one, did not know that they have been in the Chicago area lately looking for sunken warbirds in Lake Michigan!

Read on!

http://www.cdnn.info/industry/i040531a/i040531a.html

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It was a good idea, it just didn't work.

Hi Dan

I read the post, it makes you wonder what the Hell the NHC is up to.I fI was A&T I would be filing an in juction in Fed Court to stop this.

That would be great have Justice show up and serve them with a suppeana.

Also maybe its time we contact A&T and get their side of the story I'm sure they might be interested in what we are trying to do.

A&T Recovery knows where all of the remaining airframes are in Lake Michigan. They spent a huge amount of time and money locating all of the wrecks, and as such they now have a major monopoly on that data. The idea was to guarantee themselves the lucrative recovery contracts from the Navy, but like any business situation involving a monopoly, there's always a chance that they are taking some advantage of their information resources now by juicing up their recovery fees (I would too) above the levels accepted by the Navy in the past. The Navy is simply looking to offset these added expenses by locating the planes themselves.

The Navy (NAVICP) has been looking for an alternate source of information concerning the locations of these wrecks since about 1999. They have been trying to create some competition amongst recovery companies, which would of course be in the best interest of the Navy's budget.

As it is, A&T Recovery has already done all of the leg work and are prepared to begin the recoveries immediately. It appears to me that the Navy is simply using their "non-related study" to allocate US Govt funds that would otherwise have to have been approved as part if their hemmoraging recovery budget. It's kind of a tricky move on the Navy's part, but that's how you make government business work in your interest I suppose. In my opinion, A&T Recovery probably deserves the right to recovery the planes for the Navy since they have such a sterling track record, AND because they are bona fide recovery professionals.

After seeing the US Navy's attempts at recovering the PBM(?) in Lake Washington, I cringe at what might result of their sophomore efforts in Lake Michigan. Hire professionals if you want it done right IMO!

Working with an outside company also opens the door for some of the planes to end up in the private sector as well. A&T Recovery received at least a couple of the Lake Michigan birds as payment for their services in the past. I'm not sure if this is a big factor in the Navy's decision to internalize the process, but it seems logical in light of their various wranglings with civilians as of late. Add to that the fact that they are the US NAVY and should certainly be able to reconnoiter a lake for pete's sake! As we've judged from watching the Navy's actions in the past, there's probably more than a little "ego" involved in their decision process.

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Rob Mears
'Surviving Corsairs' Historian
robcmears@yahoo.com
http://www.robmears.com

NICE POST ROB!!I LIKED HER STATEMENT ON THEIR TRYING TO DECIDE WHICH A/C ARE HISTORICAL ENOUGH TO RECOVER!!DOES THIS MEAN THE REMAINDER CAN BE RECOVERED IN PRESEVATIONS SAKE BY THE PRIVATE SECTOR OR WILL THE LET THEM ROT POLICY STAY IN EFFECT?ALSO CAPT BOB SEEMS SUPPORTIVE OF THE RECOVERY CO.S INVESTMENTS AND RIGHTS OR DID I READ IT WRONG?HOW MANY AIRFRAMES CAN THE NAVY RESTORE AND DISPLAY IN A RESPOSIBLE MANNER(NOT DISPLAYED AS RECOVERED!!)OF THE 31 RECOVERED FROM THE LAKE HOW MANY ARE RESTORED AND ON DISPLAY? OUT OF THAT HOW MANY WERE RESTORED WITH THE SAME FUNDS/DONATIONS OF THE PRIVATE AVIATION COMMUNITY THAT THE NAVY SO DEARLY WANTS TO KEEP FROM RECOVERING AND RESTORING WITH OUR OWN MONEY?DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE?THE PIMA HELLCAT WAS A GREAT EXAMPLE OF LETS DISPLAY IT AS RECOVERED,IT SAT AND ROTTED FOR SEVERAL YEARS,I WAS SO HAPPY TO SEE THAT THE NAVY STEPPED IN AND HAD IT RESTORED AND ITS A CENTER PIECE IN THEIR MUSEUM!!!! THATS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT, IM NOT A PILOT ,ILOVE TO SEE THEM FLY,BUT I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH A/C THAT ARE THOUGHT OF AS JUST JUNK ,BEYOND RESTORATION,COULD NEVER FLY,BEING RESTORED TO A PRESENTABLE STATIC DISPLAY!! SO WHAT IF ITS A GROUND HOG!!!MOST OF THE MAJOR MUSEUMS WOULD NEVER PERMIT ANY OF THEIR A/C TO FLY AGAIN .THATS WHY WRECKS, HULKS,ECT. SHOULD BE RECOVERED NOW,WAIT ANY LONGER AND ITS TOO LATE YOU CAN BUILD FROM PATTERNS BUT NOT FROM DUST!!!!!! THANKS MIKE

Hello,

Rob Rohr E-mailed me and asked that I review what has been posted on the forum boards. I must say it is interesting reading.

It seems that Buddy Macon has offered to meet with interested parties concerning Navy policy, I would like to go to such a meeting.

I will offer to you (I make the same offer to any group, so don't think you are special, ha ha Taras humor) to present (in person) our (A. and T. Recovery) story of the Lake Michigan Naval Aircraft recovery project. I do not charge a speaking fee, I like to do the presentations, and they are given to enhance public understanding and education. Generally the best presentations are to groups that range from 50-150 (I have given them to as many as 500) people. If you have a group that is interested send me an E-mail.

Points I cover in the presentations:

How the airplanes were located
The role of the National Museum of Naval Aviation (as I see it)
The role of the Foundation for the National Museum of Naval Aviation (as I see it)
The role of the Naval Historical Center (as I see it)
How the project was funded
Understanding Admiralty Law (aiding a vessel in distress/or it is not mine just because I found it, but I do like it when the owner compensates me for my efforts)
Side discoveries

Taras

Rob, post a phone number I can reach you at....