P-38 recovery update?

Nathan · **Posted:** Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:51 pm

wow missed this thread. But gald I did wow nasty too much negativity and we all like warbirds right?!

Richard Woods · **Posted:** Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:37 am

I haven't had chance to go back. I've got to go over to Wales again in a few weeks (I tend to go every few months for car parts)

If I get chance I'll have another look. I still want to see if that Google earth shot will put me on it.

Failing that I'll just act suspicious until TIGHAR's security show up. :wink:

Seriously though; has anybody yet managed to successfully stabilise a metal wreck from salt water?

Regards

Ric

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:01 am

Richard Woods wrote:

I haven't had chance to go back. I've got to go over to Wales again in a few weeks (I tend to go every few months for car parts)

If I get chance I'll have another look. I still want to see if that Google earth shot will put me on it.

Is there any way you could get a private plane up and take some pictures up and down that stretch of coast? Might provide some higher-resolution imagery and better information.

Ryan

JDK · **Posted:** Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:38 am

The lack of progress and announcement isn't impressive at the most charitable.

Richard Woods wrote:

Seriously though; has anybody yet managed to successfully stabilise a metal wreck from salt water?

Hi Ric,
I thought we'd discussed that one? I don't recall detail offhand though. There is an example in this thread, last page, the Anzio P-40. If you widen the net beyond aircraft into shipwrecks, then there's a lot more data.

Didn't someone drop a warbird F4U into water and then rebuild it later?

The issue is that while it's expensive, difficult but possible to slow or almost halt decay after recovery, it's not possible to reverse it unless you take major mechanical methods - like replacing material completely. Shallow salt wrecks in tidal areas with sand are about the worst as it's not just the salt but other factors in combination...

HTH.

Richard Woods · **Posted:** Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:12 am

I think we did discuss water recoveries, but I'm sure somebody mentioned the results weren't as good as they could have been with the P-40.

I remember an F4U ditching.... it may be the one you mention. From what I heard a lot of magnesium components and other parts had to be replaced even after a short immersion. I think it was into fresh water, too.

I wonder whether any of the companies that specialise in car restoration could do anything? There's various chemicals used now to treat corrosion, or turn it back from oxide into metal, using big immersion tanks and such like. I'll do some asking, seeing as that's where most of my life is outside work.

Despite all my jokes about going digging, I have to be a fairly good boy... it could cost me my job if I ignore guidelines for wrecks laid down by my bosses. My hackles still go up at the idea of some TIGHAR hired, self appointed idiot trying to order me off a public beach though, just for poking around.

Ryan: that's a good idea about the plane, but most of my time in Wales is done on a spur of the moment if I need parts. The P-38 is a fun diversion. I shall have to try and come up with a better plan for a longer stay in the area.

Regards,

Ric

JDK · **Posted:** Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:22 am

Richard Woods wrote:

I think we did discuss water recoveries, but I'm sure somebody mentioned the results weren't as good as they could have been with the P-40.

That may be fair comment, of course everyone knows better than the person doing it, too. AFAIK, and I'm not sure of the details, it was successfully recovered, stabilized and put on show. How stable for how long would be the questions.

I think bigger context is that the technology is there theoretically, but because there's no meaningful cost-value recovery for these wrecks, it's rarely used to full effect.

Quote:

I remember an F4U ditching.... it may be the one you mention. From what I heard a lot of magnesium components and other parts had to be replaced even after a short immersion. I think it was into fresh water, too.

Thought it was salt.

Quote:

Date/location: APR-04-97 at NEW SMYRNA BCH, FL
Aircraft: Chance Vought F4U, registration: N45NL
Injuries: 1 Uninjured.

On April 4, 1997, about 1120 eastern standard time, a Chance Vought F4U , registered to L Clark Hill Trustee, operated by Collings Children's Trust, as a 14 CFR Part 91 personal flight experienced a total loss of engine power, and ditched in the water adjacent to New Smyrna Beach, Florida. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan was filed. The airplane sustained substantial damage. The commercial pilot was not injured. The flight originated from New Smyrna Beach about 50 minutes before the accident. The pilot he had been flying over the water at 3,500 feet, and another pilot was taking photos of his airplane. The engine started sputtering. He confirmed the fuel selector was on, boost pump was on high, mixture was full rich, and that the magnetos were on both. The engine continued to sputter. He informed the other pilot that he was returning to the airport. About 20 seconds later, the engine quit. He declared an emergency and made a forced landing to the water next to a boat. He exited the airplane unassisted, and was picked up by personnel on the boat.

http://www.aafo.com/news/accident.htm

I'd suggest exploring maritime museum resources before looking at the car guys stuff, although all avenues are worthwhile, of course. Going back to the point at the start of this post, it seems to me to still be an experimental field in its application.

Regards,

Jesse C. · **Posted:** Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:49 am

It was the Collings bird that went into the drink and was pulled and rebuilt.

PinecastleAAF · **Joined:** Fri May 25, 2007 4:50 pm **Posts:** 1027

The relics in these waters don't seem to hold up very well. As someone mentioned the shallow water wrecks seem to fair the worst. It would be worth doing for the data plate aspect of it in order to have the paperwork for a rebuild plus whatever could be salvaged pattern wise. The stuff I have seen just litterally crumbles to dust once it dries out.

Aircraft from the med like the P-40 and the B-24 Hadleys Harem seem to hold up a lot better than aircraft in the english channel area.

avenger2504 · **Posted:** Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:52 pm

Wasn't a Zero or some other WW2 era japanese aircraft recovered from the sea in the 1980s? I seem to recall it is on display in Japan possibly Tokyo?

JDK · **Posted:** Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:02 pm

avenger2504 wrote:

Wasn't a Zero or some other WW2 era japanese aircraft recovered from the sea in the 1980s? I seem to recall it is on display in Japan possibly Tokyo?

Good call:

Quote:

A6M2-21 field conv. to 2 seater at Rabaul, New Britain
A6M-2b ditched in sea Cape Lambert, near Rabaul .45
2 seater Geoff Pentland & Barry Coran, Melbourne VIC .72
(recov. from sea near Rabaul, New Britain 8.72)
(shipped from Rabaul to Melbourne, arr. 23.9.72,
static rest. Melbourne-Essendon VIC 72/75)
Shintaro Ishimatsu, Tokyo .75
National Science Museum, Tokyo, Japan .75/08
(displ. as "53-122")

From Warbird Directory, 5th Ed.

PinecastleAAF · **Joined:** Fri May 25, 2007 4:50 pm **Posts:** 1027

I thought about the Zero but didn't think it was a very good comparison for this thread since it was recovered in 1972.

JDK · **Posted:** Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:39 pm

PinecastleAAF wrote:

I thought about the Zero but didn't think it was a very good comparison for this thread since it was recovered in 1972.

Indeed. OTOH, it is a 30+ y/old salt-water recovery, AFAIK, in decent presentation condition!

bdk · **Joined:** Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am **Posts:** 11319

There was also the Zero that burned up in the SDAM fire. Wasn't that one a Tallichet recovery? I only saw it once, but it looked pretty good for a display as I recall.

ZRX61 · **Joined:** Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:16 am **Posts:** 2304

Steve Nelson wrote:

Quote:

The charity is the only organisation of its kind in the world which focuses on recovering historically-important wrecks and donating them to museums for the public to enjoy.

I have a hard time classifying TIGHAR as a charity. And refresh my memory..exactly how many aircraft have they recovered during the 25 years or so they've been around? Old shoes and non-descript bits of sheet metal don't count.

SN

"I'll take Big Fat Zero's for $1000 please"

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