Mid-air at Duxford, Pilots ok

mike furline · **Joined:** Wed May 05, 2004 3:45 pm **Posts:** 2628

Slow motion,
http://www.flyingfilm.co.uk/

aerojock · **Joined:** Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:58 am **Posts:** 148

Wouldn't the lead ship have to base his break on the previous flight of four? He couldn't break too fast or he would cut them off.

51fixer · **Posted:** Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:05 pm

Ken wrote:

Jim Beasley wrote:

The Balbo always has a mix of planes and invariably you'll have dissimilar aircraft in the formation. I've done it a number of times and it can get interesting up there. As long as everyone is paying attention these aren't problematic formations. I agree with Dudley that if you do that sort of break you've got to know what each other is going to do and have a clear understanding regarding the cadence of the break ...

I'm not accustomed to seeing Lead break from the center of the formation and cross #2's flight path. Not a judgment, an observation. If that's what they briefed, then okay. Time will tell if everyone was operating on the same page ... it's one thing to make a mistake ... it's another to be put into a situation you weren't expecting and make a mistake. At least the two pilots (and one AD-4) are safe.

This involve a hard vertical pull keeping wings straight until after a positive climb has been established.
A typical missing man has the same type of pull up from within the formation.
Everything should be flown as briefed.
It is done for a look and isn't too difficult when done by experienced airshow pilots.
Again, fly whats briefed.
After the timed pull up it is up to each pilot to adjust spacing as you enter the landing circuit.

Pogo · **Posted:** Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:00 pm

What is 'Balbo'...?

How's the P-51 pilot?

51fixer · **Posted:** Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:06 pm

Pogo wrote:

What is 'Balbo'...?

How's the P-51 pilot?

Italians used to put up very large formations that came by in elements or small groups.
Legends now use the name for their large group formation as kinda of a curtain call at the end of the show each day.
Stephen Grey usually rockets around in his F8F or another fighter doing a Joker routine of aerobatics in the dead time as the formation gathers and sets up for passes.

WIXMOD-Charlie · **Joined:** Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:53 am **Posts:** 256

May I remind everyone of the forum rules and not speculate. All such posts will be removed. If it keeps on going, i'll lock the topic!

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:41 pm

it is not speculating when you watch the video and can see what happened, and those of use who do and have flown formation with the same type and dissimilar types and know what it takes. If you want to silence those of us who have been there, done that, and most likely have pinched a few seat cushions in the process, then I guess there is a reason alot of us no longer post on here as much as we used to.

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:48 pm

aerojock wrote:

Wouldn't the lead ship have to base his break on the previous flight of four? He couldn't break too fast or he would cut them off.

yes and no, if he gets too close, he can open the distance of the base turn, or fly a wider or higher pattern. it is not like driving on the road, there are no set lanes you have to stay in,

WIXMOD-Charlie · **Joined:** Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:53 am **Posts:** 256

Matt, I was refering to a post of a member blaming one of the pilots personally and making wild accusations. Let's leave the investigation to the investigators. We weren't there and we don't have all the data. That does not mean you cannot voice your opinion, but leave the assumptions and accusations to the tabloids please.

Stephan Wilkinson · **Joined:** Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:23 am **Posts:** 699

"What is 'Balbo'...?"

The word/expression comes from the time Italo Balbo, the famous Italian air force general, led a large flight of Savoia-Marchetti flying boats across the Atlantic to the U. S. Not only was the flight a major accomplishment, but the group of airplanes was large enough that ever since, any particularly large formation of airplanes is informally referred to as "a Balbo."

warbird2 · **Joined:** Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:03 am **Posts:** 173

WIXMOD-Charlie wrote:

Matt, I was refering to a post of a non-pilot member blaming one of the pilots personally and making wild accusations. Let's leave the investigation to the investigators. We weren't there and we don't have all the data. That does not mean you cannot voice your opinion, but leave the assumptions and accusations to the tabloids please.

Look at the videos. There are plenty to choose from! There is no wild accusation involved of any sort and there is no assumption. The Skyraider hit the Mustang, the Skyraider landed, the Mustang pilot jumped out and fortunately both men live to fly another day.

I hate to break it to you but it is not a requirement to be a pilot to know things about formation flying.

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:22 pm

there is no doubt as to the cause of the incident, the AD violated the #1 rule of formation flying, every other excuse is secondary.

WIXMOD-Alpha · **Posted:** Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:43 pm

Matt Gunsch wrote:

there is no doubt as to the cause of the incident, the AD violated the #1 rule of formation flying, every other excuse is secondary.

That's a pretty hard conclusion to argue with...
And yes, I've done some dis-similar formation work.

Randy Haskin · **Posted:** Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:38 pm

bluehawk15 wrote:

Another factor may have been if the Mustang had a slight speed change. The Skyraider is kind of massive, and probalby wouldn't be able to slow as quick as the Mustang. I remember being in a similar formation, two Mustangs and a Sea Fury. I was in the backseat of the #2 Mustang, and Sandy Sansing was flying the Sea Fury as #3. We were going to do some formation acro, but Sandy split off and played by himself. After landing I asked why and he said he couldn't get the Sea Fury to slow down as fast as the Mustangs were during some manuvers that cost airspeed.

All of those are factors that should have been completely considered and discussed in the preflight briefing.

Outside of a specifically-briefed scenario where the roles are reversed, it is ALWAYS the responsibility of the wingmen to keep their lead IN SIGHT and AVOID HITTING their lead. That includes taking into consideration all of the potential performance differences between aircraft and compensating for them with that maneuvering. That also includes maneuvering up to and including over-Ging your own aircraft to avoid a collision.

There's a second part of the contract, though, that experienced flight leads know -- that is, always maneuver predictably so as to not surprise your wingmen. An erratically-flying lead gives his wingmen 3D problems to solve that are much more difficult (think of how a dogfight works -- it's basically formation flying with non-cooperative leads and wingmen) and may not allow wingmen the time to maneuver to their "out" should a conflict pop up.

With respect to this particular incident, it is tough for me to pin blame on either the Mustang lead or the Skyraider wingman, as we don't know if there were any mechanical issues that caused either the Mustang to fly in a non-predictable way that the Skyraider pilot did not expect, or mechanical issues that caused the Skyraider to be unable to maneuver his aircraft away from his lead.

Either way, formation pilots all need to take this opportunity to remember that these contracts are "written in blood", and that violation of these contracts can have disastrous consequences as shown in this incident.

ZRX61 · **Joined:** Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:16 am **Posts:** 2303

Randy Haskin wrote:

or mechanical issues that caused the Skyraider to be unable to maneuver his aircraft away from his lead.

Didn't seem to have any problems maneuvering around the patch & landing tho.....

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Mid-air at Duxford, Pilots ok

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