Warbird Information Exchange

The BBMF operate two Hawker Hurricane Mk.II machines, LF363 and PZ865. LF had an in flight engine fire, and was safely put down by the pilot, who IIRC, sustained a broken ankle. It was restored by Historic Flying Ltd, and I saw the aircraft twice, early in the restoration and later on at Audley End. You would be surprised at how much was not replaced in the rebuild.

Can you support that? IMHO, the history, rebuilds and provenance of all currently active front line W.W.II era aircraft is well documented (in fact they are all in one book - the Warbird Directory, which in most cases covers the occasions of rebuilds). I'm not familiar with the car business, but there are more cars, players, restorers and lower certification requirements for rebuilds - hence a much greater opportunity for fraud, or fiddled provenances.

A complete myth, which regularly comes up here and elsewhere. 'Factory fresh' or 'brand new' is different to 'original'. In terms of museum artefact measures, changes that take place in service are part of the history of the artefact. Changes after entering preservation are part of it's preservation history, and do not have the value that the service history has.

It's a complex area, and any useful discussion has to start with precise definition and also cite specific examples. The historic car business has precise definitions of eras, and several court cases giving precedence for future cases on originality. The warbird business has neither, but that does not mean that the originality of machines isn't known.

Critically, the discussion here started with the difference between the replica Flug Werke machines which are 'look alike' Focke Wulfs and the first genuine Focke Wulf to fly for over 60 years. The difference and originality is clear. Muddling modern 'look-alike' replicas with carefully restored originals using original methods and parts is a disservice to the warbird industry that is aiming to achieve the highest standards, including safety, airworthyness and originality. Certainly the degree of original parts and 'recreation' in a restoration is important; just as is the effort to maintain original standards.

The place for true historic machines is in public trust in national collections, where the issues with replacing material and originality isn't driven by the desire to fly. There is also a place for replicas, and for active warbirds.

Regards,

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

actually james in the historic car world you have a much harder time than aircraft in getting an original car through the authorities.
i'm restoring a former bathurst touring car and even though i can prove provenance i have to get the car inspected by approved people just to get the approval to restore it,then comes a whole other bunch of rules,it has to be completely in the condition that it raced at a particular event,no replacement of parts by non original parts and nothing modern that could alter the perormance.
and this is the lower end of the scale if you go up to things like finding a lost Ferrari 250 gto then the hoops you'd have to jump through would be incredible.
whereas warbirds seem to come from nowhere these day,for instance several FW190 seem to have taken original fw190 identities(including the possibility of the previously mentioned d model)

Interesting points on the car business, thanks.

Again there's a perception from amateur observers that this is the case, but I don't agree any warbirds are 'coming from nowhere', and nor are there many / any 'identity grafts' that are not known about.

Anyone currently confused between a Flug Werke machine and a Focke Wulf isn't paying attention. Future 'back re-engineering' may well bring a FW closer to Fw, but again, given the tiny numbers involved, keeping track isn't hard.

If you are able to buy a warbird, competent provenance advice can easily be found. If you want to track what's out there, the data's publicly available, it just need research, precision and the ability to note where certain statements of fact are missing.

However, maybe I'm lucky to be well informed.

Regards,

_________________
James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

your probably right James but i could swear that i read in one of our local aviation mags that had the full list of the FW190 production they listed several that had taken fw id's (but i could be wrong)as for turning up out of now where the new registration of a long tail p40f seems to come to mind up until recently it was thought that only 2 f models existed and they are both pacific veterans (though one is being converted to an e model look alike for the rnzaf museum).
but back on subject well done to Paul Allen and all the restorers for getting a real fw190 back in the air

Now that the 190 has flown, does anyone have any updates on Allen's two other German aircraft - the Me 262 and the Fw 189? Is either one still currently being worked on? They both are supposed to fly, AFAIK.

Very interesting Mark, the lakes are not very deep either are they? There must be loads of airframes in various states in the north German lakes and also the Polish ones. The Muritz see would be an obvious choice to look as well, and having the Rechlin aircraft testing station on its shores, the mind boggles
In fact if people want to find a Short Stirling they should probably investigate these lakes!

I'm sure that video will surface. Just give it time.

I recall from one of the project diary updates from the White 1 A-8 that Mike Nixon was bench-testing the kommandogerät from their BMW and that it passed all tests. So no doubt that a lot of work and research has gone into the engine restoration by Mike and company.

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"They done it, they done it, damned if they ain't flew." December 17, 1903

Ah yes, the infamous Kommandogerät. Here is a picture from White 1's website:

http://white1foundation.org/



For more info on this technologically advanced W.W. II version of a FADEC, MEC, EEC, ECU, or fuel control unit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf ... ger.C3.A4t

James,

I was aware that the Flug Werke machines deviated from the originals in the engine and systems department but I was under the impression that the structure was a painstaking reproduction to original specifications based on recovered material and the few plans available. If this isn't the case then I'm more than a little disappointed. Do you have any information on how the structural parts deviate from the original design please? Are we talking about things like inaccurate rivets or bigger issues like simplified internal structure or incorrect former profiles?

Although the Spits being produced by Historic Flying Ltd at Duxford can be largely reproduction, I know they go to great lengths to produce the parts to original specifications with original materials and methods. They have a huge library of original blueprints and other documents to support their operation. I have huge respect for these guys and the work they're producing is as close to original as possible. This is the way to go in my book.

Anyhow, fantastic to see this 190 fly. Even better to hear that it has original armament fitted. I'm grateful that we have guys like Paul Allen. I may never get to see the final product but just the knowledge that another historic airframe has been saved, restored to original specifications and cared for is enough for me.

All,
The 190 was flown by Steve Hinton (a very nice gentleman, by the way...). The test flight was at GossHawk Unlimited in Casa Grande, AZ, not Seattle, Chino, or Tehachapi. Reps from the various participating companies were present. After multiple turns around the patch, Mr. Hinton did a fast, low pass down the runway. The sound of that BMW is unlike anything you may have heard. It was almost like a blend of a radial and a V12. It was indeed a sweet sound!

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Without wires, it won't work.

I would like to make a comment about the original fw and flug werks 190, I am currently putting one together and sharing the hanger space with Mr. Allen’s original fw. In my opinion, the structure of the flug werk is as close to original as you can get. The most notable difference is the gear doors, while the size and shape are the same the original has stamped doors and the flug werk doors are single pieces that are cut and rolled. For the systems, if a owner of a flug werks wants to put in a original BMW 801 and the systems for it, he can. I can say that after seeing all work that went into the engine and systems for the original, it would not be practical for what I want to do, going to air shows and being active in flying the airplane, not even counting the cost and time. We used the original fw books to put the plane together, things like rigging the control systems and other systems are done per the original. My attitude about original and replicas is that I know of wrecks that were built in to flying airplanes using only the wreck as a template, or the restorations that used one wing rib, which is then called a rebuild.
I frankly don’t care, the fact that Paul Allen had the passion to restore a original fw is beyond belief, and unlike a mustang or spitfire , the engine and accessories for the fw are not available. which makes is more amazing. but what Flug werk did is amazing as well, we will now have fw 190’s flying at airshows, that should be what people care about. I can appreciated both the original fw and the flug werk

Dan Kirkland

Thanks for the info, Jeff. We would love to see video of any of the flights if you or your friends shot any!