Warbird Information Exchange

first off no you can't! Lefty didn't have issues with the regular german re-enactors as a matter of fact I have a picture of him dressed as a german officer for the battle of britan movie in which he flew one of the bombers. His issue was with the SS and he felt pretty strongly about it!

Here are a few photos from Operation Cobra, Florala, Al. Oct. 2010. I flew my L-4 out of a 900 ft pasture during the event supporting the Allied Armor and troops. Never met a finer group of people and really enjoyed it.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Piper-L-4 ... 2753435388

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https://www.facebook.com/groups/2282629 ... ref=SEARCH

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1062859 ... 8743408401

The issue was (clearly, I think) over him portraying a member of the SS - not as a German soldier.

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Not a German soldier, a member of the Nazi SS. While the common public most likely doesn't differentiate between the German military and the Nazi party and it's troopers. His opponent road the issue in the media to the bank.

Shay
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Semper Fortis

Hell he should have known better! Even certain police departments tell their fellows that if they do the "reenacting thing" to NOT DO AN SS UNIT as it's "frowned upon".

Scott

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Scott Dunkirk
AZGCLHU Inc.

http://arizonagroundcrew.org/

1940's Army Air Force ground crew living history
(A 501 C 3 organization)
(IYAMYAS)

"Yes sir, it's suppose to look like that"

The odd/sad thing is that SS units are often good 'starter units' for beginners.
Commonly, they have a reduced 'accuracy' level because the Waffen SS was outside of the straight Wehrmacht supply chain, and were originally less 'original'. That makes it cheaper for someone just starting out to be able to afford slightly off uniforms or the one good camo smock that covers up a lot of mistakes.

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Lest Hero-worship raise it's head and cloud our vision, remember that World War II was fought and won by the same sort of twenty-something punks we wouldn't let our daughters date.

Roger that. I do it every day in my job. To a post, I don't think anyone suggested the wholesale 'censorship' of SS reenacting. My comments in particular state that IMHO dressing up in SS garb has it's place, e.g., actors in a film such as Schindler's List, or maybe as part of a battle scene being reenacted live for an audience. THAT sort of context is telling the complete story of history, which should be told as you say - I don't think there is a person on this board who disagrees with that statement.

But in the context of this thread - I think what we are primarily talking about are folks simply dressing up and walking around crowds in the bad ass black gear. Yeah, those chaps are 'representing history', but to get the full picture of historical fact in order to offend and sicken us so that it never happens again, I hope some of those dudes are 'representing' 2nd SS Panzer or the SS officers running certain Jewish death camps. History? Yes. But IMHO you have to be a pretty sick individual to just, as I said earlier, "walk around and wear that crap - and what it represents - as part of any volunteer personal-collection airshow reenacting." Quite different than the 'contextual' scenarios I mentioned.

Now *I'll* crawl back into MY hole!

Wade

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Website: http://www.wademeyersart.com
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/Wade.Meyers.Studios

I couldn’t agree more. Thank god Lloyd, Lefty, Connie, et al saved these wonderful aircraft.



This is where I disagree. Why not call them the Commemorative Air Force? They operate the same aircraft and have the same mission as always, yet times have changed in the realm of public opinion. Do I like this, no, but it is a fact of life and it is ignorant to deny this fact. You are only punishing the organization that flies the aircraft you are PRIVELEGED to enjoy by refusing to call it by its ACTUAL name. I grew up at the end of the "Confederate" era... The name wasn't changed out of idealism; it was changed out of the best interest of the perpetual care of the aircraft. You need to realize this.



Don't you mean: "maybe the planes were obsolete,but they FLY.if you wanted to drop a "little boy"bomb on some poor atoll,they FLY the only delivery system(Fifi)

Not to shift the subject of this topic, but this attitude towards the CAF and its current name is selfish and takes away from the mission of the organization.

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Taylor Stevenson

You say Potato and I say potaatoe,you say tomatoe and I say Tomatoooe.You say commemorative and I say Confederate.why is Commerative acceptable and Confederate not? only due to the recent concept known as "Political correctness" I believe that we are all doomed in the long run.

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"WHAT ME WORRY?"

As someone who's recently entered the reenactor world, I find myself drawn to these discussions, as I'm genuinely interested in the thoughts of others- particularly those whom we choose to honor with our impressions. I was lucky enough to find a custom tailored AAF Class A which fits me perfectly, and I was very pleased to have a 303rd BG veteran come up and compliment me on my outfit a couple years back. The vets really seem to enjoy it, and the public appreciates having reenactors giving a wider sense of time and place at places like Reading and Jerry Yagen's show in Va Beach... the turnout at Jerry's shows the past couple years seem to bear this out, and I didn't see one single instance of anyone getting their shorts in a knot about all the reenactors. On the contrary, I saw numerous very kind and positive interactions between those of us wearing vintage uniforms, and those who actually served in them.

One thing I wanted to add regarding the numbskull in Ohio... I have zero problems with German reenactors, but people need to THINK before getting involved on that side- it's just the nature of the beast, especially in today's highly charged political environment. And honestly, I think the guy would've been able to move past it had he been involved with any other German reenacting organization, but the choice of the Wiking Division was extraordinarily bad. The history of the Wiking Division does not seem worthy of commemoration, at least by decent civilized folks... you would think people would try and avoid association with a unit which claimed Dr. Josef Mengele as one of it's alumni. And the group in Ohio didn't exactly redeem itself in it's obtuse defense of their choice of unit. But that was his choice, and if he didn't understand there might be political fallout from his association with an "enemy" unit, especially one with a sordid history of executing prisoners and Jews, then he clearly doesn't have the foresight to be an effective public servant anyways.

Here I am with "Wild Cargo" at last May's show:



Lynn

You'd be surprised (or maybe not) how many members of the general public think that World War 1 Germans were Nazis...

Interestingly the replica Fokker E.V in the background is painted in the colors of the one flown by Gotthard Sachsenburg, a WW1 naval ace who was arrested in WW2 for being anti-Nazi. He was eventually released because his father owned a shipyard that the Nazis needed. His nephew Heinz was a well known WW2 ace.

Incidentally, that photo was taken at the Vintage Aero Flying Museum ( http://www.vafm.org/ ) just north of Denver, CO, and for you uniform enthusiasts it's the largest collection of original military pilot uniforms in the world, over 100 from WW1 (the ones in the photo above are repros though) and a growing number of WW2 uniforms.

As for reenacting, I think it's great when done properly, how else would you ever see what a line of Union soldiers moving forward looked like? And I love seeing a good air to air photo of a restored warbird with the pilot in proper headgear (putting aside the helmet argument) and mae west. Or on the ground with ground crew attending.




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http://www.biplanerides1.com/

One BIG thing that kind of gets me is, true the SS did some bad things BUT there were units that basically just field combat units. AND what about the Russian units that rolled into small towns to "eliminate" the ENTIRE town? Justa thought is Stalin did some EXTREMELY BAD things and in some cases almost worse than Hitler. Just my 2 cents worth.

Scott

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Scott Dunkirk
AZGCLHU Inc.

http://arizonagroundcrew.org/

1940's Army Air Force ground crew living history
(A 501 C 3 organization)
(IYAMYAS)

"Yes sir, it's suppose to look like that"

"Vets don't mind ..."

"Members of the public appreciate ..."

"No one gets their shorts in a knot ..."

Guys, just because people don't get in your faces with their reactions, doesn't mean they aren't there. It's pretty well documented, if you step out of the bubble and read reactions to reenactors in more diverse forums, that some vets do mind and some of the public thinks of the reenactor scene as silly at best, if not offensive. They just aren't the ones talking to you; possibly because that would conflict with their goal of staying as far from you as possible. Or they're being polite, or don't care enough to express their views.

The issue is bigger than the distinction between good guys and bad guys, or good Nazis and bad Nazis.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't do and dress however you want to, but you might get a rude jolt someday if you are not realistic about how you are perceived.

The photos posted to this thread, for instance, would look pretty comical to some people. I don't find them so, but they do remind me of Diane Arbus' work a little.

August

When they finally got around to dedicating our local Civil War battlefield as a historical park a couple years ago, these men came up from North Carolina to reenact one of the units that had fought there.

I regret that I can't recall their unit's designation because, while few in numbers, they did a very nice job of helping us visitors visualize the action that occurred in 1863.





As far as those who reenact more recent conflicts, what's with all the paratroopers? They're everywhere.

I was a "real" paratrooper in the Army, but even I will readily admit that the paratroops did not single-handedly win WWII. To look at those reenactors, you'd think the Band of Brothers was a million-strong.

When so many of these guys seem to choose their "impressions" on the basis of which uniforms are cool and make them look tough, rather than what would most accurately represent the historical record, it's very hard not to characterize them as clowns.

Just remember, we didn't fight Germany in World War Two. We fought the Nazi's. So, that means (to the general public) all German's are Nazi's even though less than 15% of the German Military (WM, KM and Luft) were members of the Nazi party. Funny, at the time, it was against regulations to be a member of a political party. I guess they overlooked that one.

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Cheers!

Lance Jones