Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:28 am
Hellcat wrote:I got it, And your mamma had on problem with my .... oops!!!!! ... I won't go there. ... it was a joke.
Too many drinks in LV ... Sorry JDK, another foolish night ... I don't hate or disrespect you ... I'm not me these days ... keep up your great work, you're an extremely valuable person to this website. If Scott and the rest of the WIX members lost you, they would lose reality in WW2 aviation history. You always seem to have done your homework ... forget about me, I'm just a short fuse hothead ... peace friend
Well done, young Skywalker!
Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:13 am
I wish I was still young ...
Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:01 am
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:03 pm
I emailed Bill Lear who probably has more low altitude P-38 experience than anyone except Levier and maybe Hoover. He said:
Steve,
The picture is either a fake or 3 seconds later the dude flying it was dead. There would be no recovery from that attitude and altitude. I think it's a fake. See attached video for a fatal low altitude roll.
Thanks for your kind words about my past - very LONG past - P-38 acro flying. I DID get to know the handling characteristics of that fine lady!
Bill
Steve,
The picture is either a fake or 3 seconds later the dude flying it was dead. There would be no recovery from that attitude and altitude. I think it's a fake. See attached video for a fatal low altitude roll.
Thanks for your kind words about my past - very LONG past - P-38 acro flying. I DID get to know the handling characteristics of that fine lady!
Bill
Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:09 pm
A cup of coffee says the two closest guys, AND the third guy on the bike between them aren't looking at the P-38 at all ... for one thing, they're all pretty calm considering a plane is roaring right over their heads - and besides, none of the three are looking 'up' at anything. All three head positions relative to their bodies say "eyes straight ahead" and most likely into the middle distance.
If this were real, the '38 would have come in very low (possibly explaining the dust cloud, but that's easily faked as well, if not an actual dust cloud from something else), pulled nose up a bit, unloaded, and rolled - the three men would be in a great position to see it, and their eyes/heads would be LOCKED onto the object *and* their bodies would be cranked back - if they wouldn't be diving for cover.
My money's on a fake - no need for PhotoShop! Airbrushes along with cut & paste are the grandpappy of P'shop, and the artists were much more talented than the P'choppers (that's why it looks so real) ...
Wade,
who composes imaginary scenes all day long!
If this were real, the '38 would have come in very low (possibly explaining the dust cloud, but that's easily faked as well, if not an actual dust cloud from something else), pulled nose up a bit, unloaded, and rolled - the three men would be in a great position to see it, and their eyes/heads would be LOCKED onto the object *and* their bodies would be cranked back - if they wouldn't be diving for cover.
My money's on a fake - no need for PhotoShop! Airbrushes along with cut & paste are the grandpappy of P'shop, and the artists were much more talented than the P'choppers (that's why it looks so real) ...
Wade,
who composes imaginary scenes all day long!
Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:59 pm
Hellcat wrote:I wish I was still young ...
Don't know where you are on the plane of reference, Hellcat, but I'm 57 going on 25! Old as I want to be!
Life's never been better, only different!
Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:22 pm
deleted..sorry. 
Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:57 pm
If it's a fake, the author likely has no idea it is. He has probably seen the "original" negative.
The problem with a B&W photo faked in a darkroom is that it can yield a negative that is only 2 generations removed from the originals. Having the manipulation in the sky makes it even easier because of the contrast.
I think I can get the recipe right...
Use the aircraft neg and high-contrast copy film to make pin-registered negative and positive masks. So in the negative mask, the plane is clear and the sky is black. Vice versa in the positive mask.
Still using pin registers, burn the airfield neg to a copy negative using the positive mask to mask out the shape of the aircraft. Remove the airfield neg, then pin register the aircraft neg and the negative mask to burn just the aircraft to the same copy neg. You now have a film positive with the aircraft over the field, and it's only one generation removed from the two original negs. Burn another copy neg from the positive, and bingo... you have a second generation negative to pass off as the real thing.
Probably less work than PhotoShop.
The problem with a B&W photo faked in a darkroom is that it can yield a negative that is only 2 generations removed from the originals. Having the manipulation in the sky makes it even easier because of the contrast.
I think I can get the recipe right...
Use the aircraft neg and high-contrast copy film to make pin-registered negative and positive masks. So in the negative mask, the plane is clear and the sky is black. Vice versa in the positive mask.
Still using pin registers, burn the airfield neg to a copy negative using the positive mask to mask out the shape of the aircraft. Remove the airfield neg, then pin register the aircraft neg and the negative mask to burn just the aircraft to the same copy neg. You now have a film positive with the aircraft over the field, and it's only one generation removed from the two original negs. Burn another copy neg from the positive, and bingo... you have a second generation negative to pass off as the real thing.
Probably less work than PhotoShop.
Re: P-38 roll, a bit low.
Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:27 pm
mike furline wrote:This pic is from the Warren M. Bodie book, The Lockheed P-38 Lightning.
Caption reads,
"Those "Photo Joes" were pretty crazy, but it helped to be that way. An F-5E, returning from a very successful mission, performed a "victory" roll at this ridiculously low altitude, and it was recorded by an AAF photographer."
When I show this picture to people, the non-pilots say "ok so" and pilots always seem to say "HOLY poo poo".
Regards,
Mike
My read on this photo is that rolling either way from the position of the shot, the roll could not be completed given the aerodynamic parameters vs position vs altitude.