Warbird Information Exchange

okay folks

the main target for the 4th FG that day was Jüterbog A/F S/E of Brandenburg - obviously, this target was not 'visited', but when we look at the other targets (a map of the area comes in handy) mentioned in the combat summary and also in the ground claims, there is a slightly confusing picture.....:

Friedersdorf A/F is S/E of Berlin and is mentioned first in the combat report (the one with t/e trainer type a/c) - this ties in with the claim of Lt. F.C. Jones

we have a 'large permanent airfield W of Potsdam', which well could be Brandenburg-Briest, but contradicts with the fact, that in the same report, there is also an 'unidentified airfield W of Brandenburg' mentioned; IMHO this points to two different airfields. (need to check those airfield maps again for possible other candidates)

we have Plaue and Brandenburg Briest - these airfields are W of Brandenburg and in close proximity to each other

we have Weissewarte and Stendal, further W of Brandenburg

we have Gardelegen, further to the West (only mentioned related to Bunte's loss)

the clouds broke from 10/10 to 6/10 'E of Brunswick'; the group let down through louds 'in the vicinity of Berlin'

now my questions (which I now will try to get a decent answer for when going through my records tonight):

1. What was the general movement of the 4th FG ? West to East or vice-versa ?
2. Did the Squadrons operate individually or did DB keep the group together for the whole trip; ordering selected squadrons into attacks while the rest of the group provided top-cover ?
3. Gardelegen is rather far to the West compared to the other locations mentioned in the reports; was Bunte lost early in the game, assuming a general movement West to East, or how come he snagged a cable near Gardelegen when the main force was having a go much further to the East ? In this particular case I tend to believe in an error of the actual location where Bunte (Blue Flight) hit the H/T wires. It must have been in the very same heat of the action where also Beeson & Carr (White Flight, probably during the same attack) were hit, i.e. around Brandenburg / Stendal. Gardelegen also conflicts with the fact that the group made its let-down to the deck 'in the vicinity of Berlin', most probably S/E of big B.
4. If Gardelegen indeed is the correct location where Bunte crippled his a/c, how come he made it as far as Potsdam, judging from the report that his a/c caught fire soon after this incident ?

If only we could get a time-line for the various ground-claims....


NB: Please accept my apologies for this gibberish above - I am currently in a brainstorming mode and thinking out loud, in order to provide 'food for thoughts'.


Further action:

- find active airfields in this area, where Nightfighter units (Ju-88's) were stationed early April 1944 - -> check individual NJG unit histories
- find airfields where newly built Ju-88's were readied for transfer to their units (I refer to the claim of 'new Ju-88's parked' on the airfield near Potsdam and the lakes) - -> check Junkers facilities
- find reports from German sources on 5th April 1944; especially on those strafing attacks; direction of attack, etc.
- check all available literature for further information (Goodson "Tumult in the Clouds", Godfrey "A Look of Eagles", Fry "Escort to Berlin", etc., etc.


Cordially
Martin

Martin,

I've discovered some 4th FG Pilot Combat Reports for the 5 April 1944 mission. Although they come from pilots in the 335th and 336th FSs respectively, they provide a sense of the nature of the fight that day.

I think it's imortant that we not get too caught up in what the 4th FG Group as a whole did that day but rather focus on the mission profile of the 334th FS - the squadron Bunte flew in.

A review of the the group/squadron claims (as you posted earlier) gives us a clear idea of where the 334th FS's (and Bunte's) priority of effort was directed - Brandenburg-Briest.

Shade Ruff



PILOT'S COMBAT REPORT - I told the squadron that the aerodrome (Stendal) was at ten o’clock and we went in for the attack from north-east to south-west. On the first pass I covered a Ju 52 with strikes and then moved my sights on to an Fw 190. I would not have claimed the "190, but Lt Carlson - my No 3 — says that I set it on fire. I pulled up and watched the others sweep across. I saw that about ten enemy aircraft were burning, and that there was no flak, so I ordered another pass and lined up on three Ju 88s parked wing tip to wing tip on the south-west corner. As I passed over, two were blazing but at least one was shared with Lt Emerson.

I then attacked a Ju 88 in front of the north hangar and pulled up to see it burning. Capt Gentile and I then destroyed another Ju 88 on a hard stand on the northern extension I was able to pull up and see that these two Ju 88s were burning nicely. I then circled the 'drome taking pictures of the three Ju 88s which were wing-tip to wing-tip, and saw them blazing fiercely. As I watched, the end one collapsed and fell apart. As I circled, 25 aircraft were blazing, including my original two with the '190. We left because we were out of ammunition, and the aerodrome was almost obscured by huge columns of smoke. - Maj James Goodson USAAC/336th FS


PILOT'S COMBAT REPORT - I was flying Greenbelt White 3 (Maj George Carpenter was Greenbelt White leader) when we came across a small grass A/D about 20 miles SW of Berlin. There were seven T/E planes on it. We circled on the deck and came in low, strafing, and receiving very light fire from the ground, from what appeared to be one gun post. I fired at two a/c which caught fire and began to burn. We made six or seven passes but received no ground fire after the first pass.

When we left all seven planes were burning furiously, leaving absolutely no question as to whether or not they were destroyed. I claim two U/I (unidentified) training planes Destroyed. - Lt Charles Anderson USAAC, 335th FS (KIA 13 days after this mission 4-19-44)

Martin.

I've also come across the following gun camera commentary. Once again, it provides us with a sense of what the Group and some of its subordinate squadrons (unfortunately not Bunte's squadron - the 334th FS) attacked that day. Please note that Beeson took his flak hit while over an airdrome to the west of Brandenburg and not IVO Stendal. He appears to have gone down IVO Stendal while attempting to egress to the west.

Shade Ruff




4/5/1944 - 1st Lt. Paul S. Riley ("Rip") - 335th Squadron - 4th Fighter Group "The Eagles" - Airdrome - Flying a P-51 Mustang, 1st Lt. Riley attacks a Heinkel 111 above the treetops. Footage is seen of attack on an unidentified airdrome west of Brandenburg with 15+ Junkers 88's. The aircraft struck by 1st Lt. Riley can be seen suffering damage as debris flies off aircraft. During this attack, flak from this airdrome shot down one of the pilots we have seen before, Capt. Beeson, who was lost near Stendal and was alleged to have been captured as a POW. Capt. Beeson appears to have been promoted to Major and his P-51 is listed as a P-51B 43-6819 QP-B. Rip Riley was flying his P-51B 43-6922 WD-Y in which he was lost as a POW on April 24, 1944.

4/5/1944 - Maj. G. Carpenter - 335th Squadron - 4th Fighter Group "The Eagles" - Airdrome - Good footage of Maj. Carpenter attacking target aircraft on ground at Friedersdorf Airdrome near Berlin. Multiple passes in his P-51 resulted in target aircraft on fire with dense black smoke billowing high into the sky. Shadow of companion P-51 can be seen in footage.

4/5/1944 - 1st Lt. Frank C. Jones, Jr. - 335th Squadron - 4th Fighter Group "The Eagles" - Ground Targets - Flying a P-51, 1st Lt. Jones was accompanying Maj. Carpenter on attack on airdrome near Berlin. Multiple low passes inflict damage to parked target aircraft. Flying a P-51B 43-6897 WD-P

4/5/1944 - 1st Lt. Charles F. Anderson - 335th Squadron - 4th Fighter Group "The Eagles" - Ground Targets - Tower is strafed on way in to attack an airdrome near Brandenburg. Companion P-51 can be clearly seen in a low strafing run on airdrome. Also appears to have footage from airdrome attack near Berlin. KIA in this aircraft, P-51B 43-7181 WD-L "Hell's Belle" on April 19, 1944.

4/5/1944 - Maj. James A. Goodson ("Goody") - 336th Squadron - 4th Fighter Group "The Eagles" - Ground Targets - Flying a P-51, Maj. Goodson attacked the airdrome near Stendal. He is seen strafing target aircraft on ground with fire and smoke erupting. Flying either P-47D 42-7959 VF-W or P-51B 43-24848 VF-B.

4/5/1944 - 1st Lt. Robert F. Nelson ("Buffalo Grass") - 336th Squadron - 4th Fighter Group "The Eagles" - Junkers 188, Heinkel 111, Junkers 52 - In a P-51, 1st Lt. Nelson attacked an airdrome near Brandenburg. He first attacks buildings at airdrome on his way to a great view of a Junkers 188 that is strafed. There is considerable camera shake as the guns are fired in very low strafing runs on a Heinkel 111. Flying P-51B 43-6633 VF-Q.

Examples of what's already been found/recovered from Brandenburg/Potsdam area lakes:

- In 1999 three B-24 motors were pulled from the muck of Potsdam's Glindower See

- Also in 1999, major portions of a FW-190 were excavated from the muck of Potsdam's Wentowsee. The 190 had crashed near the lake's shoreline. Among the items recovered were the engine, one landing gear strut, tail wheel, radio, oxygen bottles, pieces of the stick and a water-logged bunch of papers thought to possibly be the pilot's flight log.

Shade Ruff

@ Rob: Thanks for your efforts - let's hope they can provide more insights.

@ Shade: great information as always. Very appreciated !

Martin

to all:


another reason why this particular aircraft (Hofer's QP-L) is more than just another P-51 to me......

less than three weeks before its loss near Potsdam, it almost ended up in Switzerland !

I quote from my website:

"On 18th March 1944, formations of heavy bombers were attacking indutrial targets in the Munich area. The famous 4th Fighter Group from Debden with its red-nosed Mustang fighters was ordered to provide target withdrawal support for the bombers after their bomb-run.
Col. Donald J. Blankeslee led the ‘Debden Eagles’ that day and the three squadrons took off at 1140 hours. Arriving in the target vicinity, the 334th Fighter Squadron spotted a gaggle of Messerschmitt Me-109’s and immediately gave chase. Among the pilots was Lt. Ralph Kidd Hofer, an aggressive pilot who succeeded in shooting down two Messerschmits to become an ace with 5 aerial kills. After Hofer had downed the second enemy fighter, his Mustang (his assigned plane, a P-51B-5-NA, serial 43-6946, coded QP-L) suffered from a runaway-propeller which caused extremely high r.p.m.’s in the engine. Unable to continue the fight, Hofer set course for neutral Switzerland at 6’000 feet. After passing Lake Constance and crossing into Swiss territory, Hofer started to climb up to bail out. After jettisoning the canopy and standing up on the pilot’s seat, the propeller suddenly came back to normal position. Hofer thus stepped back into the cockpit, began calculating on the remaining gas and decided that he possibly could make it back to England. Lucky Ralph Hofer landed at Manston airfield with only 6 gallons fuel left in his tanks. Throughout the whole journey back home he had to endure an uncomfortable ride due to the lack of his canopy and icy winds whipping around the cockpit."

Cordially
Martin

Does anyone know generally how deep the lakes in the region are? How fast do they drop off from the shoreline, how cold are they ?

Could it also be possible that the Russians recovered this wreck?

_________________
http://www.warbird-hangar.com links and gallery &
http://www.yakkes.com Yakkes Foundation, Yak-52

To all:

I've just reviewed 1st Lt Bunte's MACR. According to the witness, Bunte struck the HT line in the vicinity of Brandenburg Airdrome at approximately 1500 HRS on 5 April 1944. Witness then saw Bunte climb and level off at 500-700 feet. Witness later heard R/T chatter from Bunte stating that his aircraft was on fire.
Although witness did not personally see Bunte/Hofer's P51-B crash in yet-to-be identified lake, another squadron pilot did.

BLUF: This supports my theory that the Bunte crash site is likely in a lake near Brandenburg as opposed to one of the lakes surrounding Potsdam which lies further to the east. The MACR makes it unequivocally clear that the HT strike occurred IVO "Brandenburg Airdrome" - likely the Brandenburg-Briest Airdrome - as I've earlier surmised.

Shade Ruff

To all:

A couple of thoughts.

1) If Bunte was down on the deck doing 425 m.p.h. indicated it's unlikely he would have spotted HT lines when focused on the strafing mission at hand. The witness in Bunte's MACR clearly states Bunte hit HT lines (a fact which Bunte himself didn't learn until well after the war).

2) In the end, however, whether HT lines or AAA brought him down, one thing is crystal clear: the evidence to suggest he was strafing Brandenburg-Briest when the "hit" occurred is very, very strong.

- Brandenburg-Briest was a principal focus of the 334th FS's mission profile that day (see Martin's earlier post).

- Brandenburg-Briest was known to base Ju-52s.

- Bunte's MACR references him being IVO "Brandenburg Airdrome."

- There are a number of large-sized lakes in the immediate vicinity of Brandenburg-Briest.

As I've said all along, this is why the Brandenburg area is the principal focus of our search effort.

Shade Ruff

To all:

I forgot to mention that I'm in possession of two Allied aerial reconnaissance photos of Brandenburg-Briest airdrome as taken in July 1944 and April 1945. One of the photos is annotated to show hangar locations, aircraft dispersal bed-down locations, runway orientation etc. On the earlier photo, Luftwaffe aircraft are clearly visible.

These photos are proving to be very useful.

Shade Ruff

RER,

Roger. My sight picture is much clearer.

Shade Ruff

Martin,

We're definitely getting closer. One need only remember that "Glacier Girl" was recovered from under 240 feet of Greenland ice cap under less-than-ideal conditions.

A "Salem Represenative" recovery, while surely posing some technical challenges, will be very different.

Thanks again for your assistance and keep the faith!

Shade Ruff

After reviewing some new data, I may now state that I'm 90-95% confident I've identified the exact body of water into which Bunte/Hofer's P-51B "Salem Representative" crashed on 5 April 1944.

Shade Ruff

With the body of water now identified, a sonar scan search is the next step.

Will apprise of developments.

Shade Ruff