Warbird Information Exchange

I have never seen that one in person. Is it in pretty nice shape inside?

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Director

Well the B-25 has had close 250K of work done and the A-20 was taken all apart. Sounds major to me

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Don't touch my junk!!

B-17G "Liberty Belle" did not have to go in Australia this year?

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What are the plans for paint? Same scehme. If so, the guy that put the nose art on it that it wears now, seems to have done a really nice job.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Director

Ah,yes, I meant Tillamook. I get those 2 museums confused sometimes. Thanks for the correction.

Ah, good point! Now that Bob Pond has passed away, all of his aircraft are basically grounded. As I understand it, the P-63 was sold to the Palm Spring Air Museum, and since it is no longer owned by Mr. Pond's estate, it continues to fly.

I don't believe "Miss Angela" has flown for a few years, at least since Mr. Pond's passing.

So far, the leading contenders seem to be:

1) Evergreen's B-17
2) "Miss Angela", from the Palm Springs Air Museum

What about "Fuddy Duddy"? No one has mentioned that one!

We need more people from these 3 groups to deny that their aircraft are for sale.


-Warbird 1, the aviation detective.

I would say Miss Angelena and Fuddy would be the top two contenders

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Director

But consider that if they do put one of their B-17s up for sale, the NMUSAF will probably step in and repossess, citing some sort of paperwork technicality.

My take on the subject at hand...

It certainly would be interesting to see a B-17 take roost in Australia, but knowing the accuracy of the news media in the United States and other places, a "perhaps" or "I hope to..." statement can be turned into a "will be..." statement by a plucky reporter, regardless of the honest truth. So that said, until 100% confirmation of a deal by Mr. Searles, I have to take it with a grain of salt.

That said, let's look at the potentials again...

Fuddy Duddy - The latest of the "recently sold" B-17s, it is now a centerpiece of the recently-built Lyon Air Museum at John Wayne Airport. Though General Lyon is aging and I am sure his real estate development empire may be suffering with the market, I highly doubt this aircraft is being considered for sale -- I believe the museum and his collection is a legacy for him and I don't think he's in great need of cash.

Evergreen - Similar in scope to General Lyon, I believe Mr. Smith is not in great need of liquidity, and though it certainly isn't a HUGE part of the museum in McMinnville, a B-17 is still a major part of any collection - even if it is under the wing of the Spruce Goose. There's a lot of other stuff that could be sold off if they really needed the cash... but I don't see that happening either. The sale of the B-25 Super Rabbit is not connected in any way with the Evergreen Museum, so no real connection.

Texas Raiders - Though CAF seems to be divesting some assets that are under-supported, I'd certainly think that the Gulf Coast Wing remains one of the more active wings and they are making good, forward progress on T.R. as clearly evidenced by Spanner's posts here.

Sentimental Journey - No chance in God's green earth, and yes I know very little is green here in Arizona. CAF AZ remains one of the top wings and S.J. is still very viable as a fundraiser and is the flagship of the museum.

Yankee Lady - About the same as S.J. - unless there was the opportunity for them to acquire a Willow Run built B-24. Yankee Lady still remains a primary fundraiser... and I think Norm Ellickson would chain himself to the plane before he'd let it be sold.

Miss Angela - Hasn't been flown in a few years and now that Bob Pond has passed on, I am not sure how self-sustaining the museum is. I know that last year it looked like things were fairly quiet and most of the museum had become static, and some of the collection has been sold off. Again, the B-17 is a flagship in the collection, so I can't easily see it being sold... but then again, I said that with the National Warplane Museum and Fuddy Duddy, and that ended up being sold. So I guess I'd list Miss Angela as a "perhaps".

Thunderbird - Highly doubtful... again, a flagship of the fleet, an active fundraiser, and a key element to the rebirth of the museum. Now, perhaps LSFM members can shed light... does Mr. Waltrip own the B-17 or does LSFM hold title to it? Considering Waltrip has the F8F for sale, sold the A-20 and the Wildcat, I guess it always is a possibility... but highly doubtful.

Nine-O-Nine - Yeah, that might happen when monkeys fly out of my bum.

Aluminum Overcast - About the same chances as Nine-O-Nine, but in that case, turtles may fly...

Liberty Belle - Could be a possible since Don Brooks doesn't have a brick and mortar museum per se and has a spare B-17 project. From what I recall hearing by quite a few people, that project B-17 has MANY years left before it comes close to flying... so I can't imagine the Liberty Foundation selling off one B-17 so quickly without a replacement being ready. From what I recall, the P-40 was to be sold as a fundraiser for the Dyke Lake B-17 project... and that, I believe, hasn't been sold yet. I'd see the Liberty Belle perhaps flying a season down under to explore a market... but not relocating permanently as Don has such a personal connection with the plane as a tribute to his father.

Pink Lady - It's been noted here by connected individuals that this airplane will remain in France... and I don't know it well enough to comment, so we'll say that it will remain in France.

Sally B - I am surprised no one has mentioned Sally B here. Though I know that Elly Sallingboe has a strong commitment to the B-17, but I also know that insurance issues have remained a problem in keeping the plane actively flying. Perhaps our friends who are in the Duxford inner circle can comment?

Chuckie - Much like Nine-o-Nine and S.J., I'd find it really hard to believe that anyone or anything could convince Doc and Chuckie Hospers to sell the B-17. Considering Chuckie is still the main force behind the B-17 Co-op... further evidence that Chuckie (the B-17) is staying put.

Memphis Belle (MARC) - Out of all the prospects, I find this still to be the most likely candidate... Though MARC has stated through sources that the B-17 is staying put, that holds little in my opinion as they have made similar statements regarding other aircraft and projects. Understood that a lot of that happened under Mr. Tallichet with "loans" and "agreements", but if anything, he was a stabilizing force for the B-17 as it was the aircraft he flew during the war and thus the last possible aircraft that could be sold. Though the aircraft has a home base at Geneseo, it's far from an optimal situation... winter museum tours and fundraising is scarce due to lack of heat in the hangar... maintenance is performed with the same struggle. The B-17 doesn't hold an exemption letter, so it's only fundraising is through airshow appearances as it doesn't give rides... and it's pretty much proven that airshows alone can't easily sustain a B-17 operation. As much as I'd hate to see it leave Geneseo, the fact is that unless 1941 HAG actually buys the aircraft, there is really nothing concrete holding it there.

The two others being Suzy Q (Kermit Weeks), and Boeing Bee (Museum of Flight) are held by organizations who have shown a clear pattern of acquisition and not selling anything... so I highly doubt they'd go anywhere. I'd also doubt that Piccadilly Lily from POF would go anywhere either... as it is still a major part of the museum and is a long way from flying still.

That's my .02 at least...

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Ryan Keough
Stow, MA

Excellent analysis, Ryan. I would like to make one clarifying point on "Miss Angela". A lot of people tend to confuse Museum property with individuals' property. Bob Pond started the Palm Springs Air Museum, and many of his personally owned aircraft were displayed in the museum. But after talking to some members of the musuem, the PSAM actually own just a couple of planes "outright". One is the P-63 and the other, I forgot what, but it is something minor, like a Stearman, etc. That's the only reason that the P-63 is still flying to this day. Apparently, shortly before Mr. Pond's passing, there was a "falling out" between the Palm Springs Air Museum and Mr. Pond.

As a result of that disagreement, Mr. Pond or his associates decided to not fly any of his airplanes at the Palm Springs Air Museum. According to one "higher-up" volunteer I talked to from the Palm Springs Air Museum, the B-17 is owned exclusively by Mr. Pond's estate. So, with that in mind, I don't see how it could be considered the "flagship" of the Museum, since we are talking about two separate, mutually exclusive entities.

From what I've heard, there is some bad blood between the Museum and Mr. Pond's estate. In light of this, I would consider "Miss Angela" a prime candidate for being sold. She is NOT part of the museum, hasn't flown in several years and will probably not be flown again unless she is sold.

So, in my mind, the top 3 contenders for sale are:

1) Miss Angela
2) Fuddy Duddy
3) Evergreen B-17.

All of the previous information was told to me by volunteers from the Palm Springs Air Museum. If anyone is part of that organization and can clarify or improve on what I said, please feel free to jump in.

Dude, this whole Paperwork mess up thing is getting old now. Really.

Well whichever one it is it will be nice to see a B17 downunder again. I've seen pictures of the few that visited New Zealand during the war(one of which crashed on take off) so it will be neat to see a Pacific schemed Fort in Pacific skies once more. Its been a while...............

I agree. Has there ever been a Pacific scheme put on a modern flying B-17 restoration? I can't think of any.

Ryan ~ an excellent summary !

I'll chip in 2 cents worth ......

I'm not part of the "DX" inner circle by any means, but I would comment that "Sally-B" is owned by the B-17 Preservation Charitable Trust. It's difficult to see how it could therefore be sold at this time.

Looking at Ryans leading candidates ~

I wonder if "Miss Angela" or the Evergreen B-17 ever had work done to meet the AD for wing attachment bolts ? But I'm sure someone reading this will !

That work could take a while to complete and might help explain why the move is projected to be 12 to 18 months away ( as I read the article )

I wonder what Aerovintage can add to this thread ??????

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