CJ-6 loss 3 Jan 09

[RyanShort1]

I've taught spin training in a Pitts and a Decathlon, and my view is that someone is not going to gain "life-saving" recovery skills until they reach a point where they are completely comfortable in the cockpit regardless of the attitude the aircraft is in.

That is, you are able to think logically and calmly no matter what the aircraft is doing. You absolutely must be able to correctly determine the direction of yaw in order to effect a proper spin recovery (or, more importantly, stop it before it develops). That is much harder to do in an inadvertant spin than most people think. You have very little time to determine what to do in a low-altitude spin.

I found it takes most people at least 10 to 15 hours of solid aerobatics instruction before they begin to reach this point. And honestly, some people never get there. It also seems to take this amount of time for certain actions to become instinctive (e.g., push THEN roll if you find yourself accidentally inverted by wake turbulence while on final).

So, while a one hour spin introduction is a great step, and very well may instill something that could save your life, there is no comparison between someone who has 1 hour of spin training and someone who has 10 hours of spin/aerobatic training, along with yearly recurrent training, preferably in a different type of plane every year.

Do you actively do the training? If so, where in Houston? I'm supposed to be doing some of this spin training in the next couple of weeks for my CFI work. I've had one recommendation that I may go with but am interested in knowing about others.

Ryan

[DB2]

Ryan - PM sent.

[Bill Greenwood]

Ryan, my suggestion on spin training.

1. Go up high, say 8000 AGL at least.
2. Wear a parachute, and know how to use it.

If you get some lowest common denominator CFI that wants to do it at 2500 feet and with no chutes, then let him go up and demonstrate while you watch from the ground. Ask him to demonstrate skydiving without a chute.

There is nothing wrong with doing some first spin training in common light planes like a Cessna or Citabria. After all you are not trying to learn how to do an inverted multi turn airshow act. Just remember that these are light, low power planes and may come out if you just let go of the controls. Remember, NASA considers the first couple of turns as just the incipient stage, the entry. After that it may not come out so easy, if at all. A T-34A will come out right away if you let go of the controls, IN THE FIRST TURN. The manual says not to go over 2 turns, no guarantee beyond that, and I never did.

However, If you can, and have access to a T-6, with a TOP INSTRUCTOR, you ought to go up for an hour or so in it.

You want to learn stall recognition and avoiding spins, as well as recovery methods. If you are ever in an unintended real spin where your life is at stake, FIRST CLOSE THE THROTTLE, GET THE POWER ALL OFF, let go of the stick. If you can, use opposite rudder, if not sure then get off the rudder also. Power off is critical in some planes like a Pitts or a P-51. If you can't get the nose down you can't get airflow over the controls to break the spin.

[Matt Gunsch]

Bill,
One problem about getting spin training in a T-6 is the FAA. All T-6s in Standard catagory are placarded against spins.

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... -2-575.pdf

Note 2 (c)

[Bill Greenwood]

Matt, the placard only prohibits "intentional spins" , so I guess if you get into one accidentally it is legal.

Seriously, can you elaborate on this? Spin training was a part of U S military in the 6, why this now from the FAA?

[Matt Gunsch]

That placard was required in all T-6s since the type certificate was created. The only reason I can think of is due to the older radios causing a possiable aft C.G.. I believe in the service, Instrument trainers were painted with a stripe around the aft fuselage to warn other students not to dogfight with this plane due to the radios installed. It serves no purpose in todays world.

[Randy Haskin]

If you are ever in an unintended real spin where your life is at stake, FIRST CLOSE THE THROTTLE, GET THE POWER ALL OFF, let go of the stick. If you can, use opposite rudder, if not sure then get off the rudder also.

Are these the control inputs for the T-6?

Remember, spin prevention and recovery procedures and control inputs differ in different aircraft.

[Matt Gunsch]

Randy,
Check your email

[RyanShort1]

Thanks guys!

Ryan

[gilt]

That placard was required in all T-6s since the type certificate was created. The only reason I can think of is due to the older radios causing a possiable aft C.G.. I believe in the service, Instrument trainers were painted with a stripe around the aft fuselage to warn other students not to dogfight with this plane due to the radios installed. It serves no purpose in todays world.

CAA spin recovery requirements were much stricter than military requirements. At the time the T-6/SNJ series was certified the CAA required "no excessive reversal of controls during any possible spinning up to 6 turns" and that "It shall not be possible to obtain uncontrollable spins by means of any possible use of the controls", both requirements must be met at "any permissable combination of weight and CG". Still a valid requirement since the weight and CG range has not been changed even though boat anchor radios may have been removed.

The Stearman can be certified (Standard Category) at two different weights, at 2950# spins are approved, at 3200# spins are not approved even though the aft CG limit is significantly limited.

The instrument trainer marking was to alert other pilots that the plane in question did not have two sets of eyes scanning for traffic.

Tom-

[Bill Greenwood]

Randy Haskin, sad to say I can't locate my T-6 manual. But the P-51 manual says, for Power On spin recovery, close throttle completely and hold full opposite rudder with stick in neutral, and IT MAY TAKE AS MANY AS 5 OR 6 TURNS AND 9000 TO 10,000 FEET TO RECOVER AFTER RUDDER IS APPLIED. So power on spins in a 51 are dangerous, and the book says don't do them intentionally. Power off spins use the same recovery, but it happens in a couple of thousand feet.

I assume the T-6 method is the same. And I am talking a Man's T-6, not that air conditioned kerosene burning generic impostor, though I think it uses the same method. The RAF assumes a pilot knows how to recover so does not give a specific method for Spitfire, but gives a 10,000' limit for starting a practice spin, same as a 51, and says recover by 5000'.

I don't know of any piston singles in which you leave the power on to recover. Remember, I am talking about being in a full spin, not a stall break, nor an almost spin.

There has been much discussion and opinion about letting go of the stick. Both Gene Beggs and Rich Stowell have researched and taught on this, IN LIGHT PLANES. If the pilot keeps pulling g s, keeps pulling on the stick, how is he going to break the stall and the spin? So you can say stick forward, or neutral, but in a real emergency, with panic coming on, the pilot may not do it unless he lets go. If he let's go the stick will, on its own, likely move to neutral or forward of neutral.

Rich says PARE: Power off, ailerons neutral, opposite rudder, elevator neutral. Easy to remember. Opposite rudder is great, but you may have your weight on the pedals and may not know for sure which way the spin is going, if it is indeed accidental. If you let go of the rudder, I think it would go to neutral, which will allow many light planes to recover. If the nose does not come down with neutral elevator you can add forward pressure.If it spins nose down, you can try the rudder, the pilot has a 50-50 chance of it being the right one.

I would not try to be an expert in recovery from a fully developed spin(more than 2 turns) in a T-6 or fighter, but I'd like to be VERY EXPERT in stall recognition and recovery and spin avoidance. And I know that Bud Granley, who can and will make a T-6 or most any other plane do lot's of things, is not at all cavalier about spins in any plane.

I don't know about jet spin recoveries, do you use power? And the real question is how do you recover from an inverted spin in Australia when flying a Me109 with the Daimler engine?

Matt, I do know of someone teaching spin recovery in a T-6, maybe they have a waiver. I won't post it here, don't want to cause any problems on this.

Last edited by Bill Greenwood on Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

[Obergrafeter]

It's simple........................in Australia you do spin recovery the same, but you use a mirror so everything will be reversed.

[gilt]

Do you actively do the training? If so, where in Houston? I'm supposed to be doing some of this spin training in the next couple of weeks for my CFI work. I've had one recommendation that I may go with but am interested in knowing about others.

Ryan[/quote]

When you get spin training and are comfortable you may want to spin the L-2, in a top rudder accelerated stall/snap over the top entry I've seen the students sunglasses go out the window opposite the direction of roll.

Tom-

[Hvd2Pilot]

Randy Haskin/Bill:

RCAF manual has the following for the Harvard recovery (from 4 months of memory):

Power off
Rudder opposite of rotation
slowly move stick forward
Wings level
Pull out of dive

If spin does not break:
Maintain opposite rudder input
move throddle and stick full forward, the full back, repeating as required



Here is what I was taught (I'll bold the additions to RCAF with explanations)

MAX 60 gallon fuel, less with back seat empty (C of G)
Min 5000 AGL (obvious reasoning here)
2000 RPM
Mixture Idle-Cutoff
stick back
just before stall approaches, full LEFT rudder (Harvard spins flatter to the right, so force the airplane to the left)
approx. 3/4 through first rotation the nose comes up (almost to a normal flying attitude - apparently the nose comes up higher with right hand spins and thus has the potential to go into a flat spin)
MAINTAIN INPUTS
within the next rotation input full opposite rudder
check stick forward to break the spin/stall
wings level
pull out of dive
mixture rich

The least ammount of altitude loss I was able to accomplish was 1200 ft.

Note: Don't anybody go out and try this! I was taught this to use for my training only...and I don't intend to go tempting fate because the methods worked before. Consider this information inaccurate, not factual.


Drew

[mlenoch]

Great discussion......(sad to know what staarted it).........
Mustangs and Texans spin about the same way except:
Mustangs take longer to recover and Mustangs need stronger control inputs to hold and recover from the spin.
(There is one particular Texan airframe that consistantly recovers in less than 1/2 a turn......great airframe!!)
VL