P-38 roll, a bit low.

[mustanglover]

(assuming the photo is real) I don't think we are seeing a still of an aileron roll. We just don't know which maneuver is being captured. There is the possibility that the airplane was stable inverted, and has begun a turn (outside, negative G). Is it possible in a 38? I have no idea.

Your scenario is possible, but not likely. With that angle of bank and a pre-existing nose down angle, it would take a huge amount of down elevator to generate enough negative angle of attack to bring the nose up enough to avoid the ground.

Of course we are assuming the terrain is flat and the camera angle is actually as we perceive it.

[Bradburger]

I don't think you can compare the Duxford crash to this. The Duxford ship had a high sink rate going by the last roll.
Steve G

Indeed Steve, the circumstances where a bit different.

But I just wanted to show how fast things happen, and how quick the pilot of the P-38 in the picture would have to have been if he was to not crash the aircraft.

It would be interesting if we could get one of the current P-38 jocks to take a look at this picture and comment!

Cheers

Paul

My computer geek has a way of telling if this photo has been PS'ed or otherwise, stay tuned. he states things such as number of mega ps'lls and other BS that I could care less about, but I have to give him credit that he does know what he's talking about. if you all have an interest, he'll try to work his magic to see if indeed it has been altered. I'm somewhat interested in the truth because it will tell me whether a pilot lived or ... you know the answer. ... But I have to admit this has been an interesting thread.

[Eric Rogers]

I wonder if Snort had, or has an uncle that flew P-38's in WW II?

[JDK]

My computer geek has a way of telling if this photo has been PS'ed or otherwise, stay tuned. he states things such as number of mega ps'lls and other BS that I could care less about, but I have to give him credit that he does know what he's talking about.

If it has been faked, it probably predates PhotoShop. (If manipulated by the USAAF or it's agent, and Bodie's book was last published in 2001- I think we can eliminate WM Bodie from the potential manipulators, which places the possible manipulation work much earlier than 2001.)

Despite what the modern computer generation thinks, photo manipulation dates back to day 1 of the story of photography.

This isn't a good enough reproduction of the image to make a meaningful assessment of if it has been manipulated.

If it had, it would probably be a carefully composed composite picture, the P-38 superimposed on a more normally positioned, smaller aircraft. The direction the guys are 'looking' in proves nothing - their radius of view is quite large. Remove the P-38, and they could be interested in, say, a crash on the horizon. Likewise the 'shadow' could be any number of things, stain on the ground etc.

It does have the air of a quick 'grabbed' shot which would fit the action; but there's issues over the shutter speed - unless heavily cropped, there should be some visible movement - blurring - of the wingtips as the absent props point to a mid-range or slow shutter-speed of, say, 30th - 60th sec.

Just my opinion.

no need for this anymore ...

Last edited by Hellcat on Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

[JDK]

Hellcat, it's the INTERNET, it's just a discussion.

It's not about 'proving' someone's 'right'.

FWIW, I don't see myself as an expert on anything; however I'd rather have WIX populated by people who do try and share what they know, or understand, rather than those that bring a fight into any discussion.

Please cool off. I wasn't criticising you, just adding something to the discussion.

You suggested I don't respond to your posts. I didn't (and don't) agree to cease responding to anyone's posts.

Move on, let's discuss warbirds.

Regards,

No need for this one either ...

Back to the P-38 discussion if you please.

Last edited by Hellcat on Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

[RyanShort1]

Well, again as usual, not only do you come across as the formost authority on WW2 aviation history, which no one seems to know more than you, but now you seem to be the formost authority on photo manipulation. Again predictably on your part ... maybe you and my computer geek can battle this one out. I'm over pissing with you ... i'm sure he thinks your full of as well. Let me know if you want his e-mail.

BTW ... didn't I state something to you a few posts back? ... think about it

Hellcat,

You'll have to forgive me, but I'm going to be a bit blunt here. NOTHING JDK said was really out of line - or anything that would take an "expert" to figure out. I happen to have the P-38 book with the photo in question (see earlier post) and find your comments about your "expert" very amusing - I know a fair deal of guys that work professionally with PS and do some image work myself and am at a bit of a loss to figure out how you can prove an image that's probably been scanned from a collection, digitized, and put into a book to be fake or not... On the other hand, we have a known author, with a VERY decent collection, one of the most detailed books on the P-38 around, and we are accusing him of a faked photo? What on earth!
Oh, and no matter what you think of JDK, why do you have to be so antagonistic. He didn't direct anything your way, and you attacked him like he was making himself out to be something he's not - which is just not true. James IS a professional journalist, and author, and your attitude towards him is disgusting regardless of your opinion. You don't have to like someone to be civil.
Honestly, this thread is an excellent example of armchair quarterbacking without adequate information about the subject! Not that it isn't a bit fun.

Ryan

UGH!!! ... really no need for this either ...

Last edited by Hellcat on Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

[daveymac82c]

ok, this thread has gotten too far away from the topic it started with and too much towards personal attacks. Sigh....

Oh, and as much as the video has some relevance to the topic, it still made me feel sick to my stomach to see. Even 5 minutes after watching it I feel uneasy. gulp.

My opinion of the photograph is that it is the beginning of a roll where the pilot originally started at an even lower altitude (like skimming the ground), the pitching up and initiating his roll. The I picture him pushing forward on the yoke and getting that nose up (in a "oh sh*t" kind of way). Not to attack his piloting skills, but I get the feeling it might be a poorly executed roll.

I assue that the pilot survived, but learned not to do it again.

Interesting point about the unboosted ailerons. Hmm...makes you think.

-David

[TonyM]

Maybe the airplane is not in a deliberate roll. Maybe it is already out of control. Just a guess.
There is a WWII film clip of a C-47 rolling out of control at low altitude just before it crashes behind a cluster of large tents. It happened so fast on the film, all of the guys on the ground are just standing around and do not react until the airplane actually strikes the ground.
Just throwing that out there.
This is an interesting thread.

TonyM.

[sdennison]

Tough sh*t ... maybe I should send you some PM's from you pals here on WIX that I have been getting. I even had some loser accuse me of bullsh*tiing my fathers Navy record. ... maybe you'll change your attitude. I could care less about what you and JDK think .... I just don't care for him, sorry if you don't get it, I could care less, he means nothing to me, I'm just as much an authority as he could ever be. I'm a historian too. You want proof/ ... PM me and stop your whining in public. Why an I whining in public? re-read your post tough guy. ..... You get it now? i have a wicked temper ... show some respect, you'll get my respect everytime, act like a loser, I'll smash you everytime .... it's all up to you,

BTW ... I'm a short timer here, so get some sleep and dream about warbirds or something.


I'll give you all a straight answer, learn respect and get rid of your chicken sh*t PM's and we may get along, if not ... FO ...

In with the good air...out with the bad. Relax. Make your response and then go to bed. Read it again the next day and then decide if you want that on WIX. If so, let 'er dangle. If not, great night's sleep, no?

There is way too much of this person to person BS for the rest of us. You have a problem with one Dude, meet him on the street and have at it. Spare us from all this rigamaroll. We're here for the fun and interest of the Warbirds not the "my dick's bigger than your dick" crap.

Thanks Hellcat!

And this one can go away too ...

Last edited by Hellcat on Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

[sdennison]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...Pop spent time after the war investigating rat racing crashes. Many guys who made it through the combat then got involved with issues either in their last missons or ferrying aircraft out of the combat zone.

One game they played was to come in on final and touch down, then immediately go full power and try to pull a loop and touch down in the same spot on the runway. Needless to say...

This could be the same type of manuever. Hard to tell from where we sit now.