Warbird Information Exchange

Its last AAF finish was NMF, and that is how it was stored at Kingman after it left service. It was painted in OD upper and black undersurfaces at March Field late March/early April 1946 when it was being prepared for display at Los Angeles. The NASM book "The Swoose" by Herbert Brownstein suggests the flags on the right side of the nose were masked off and then the area between the flags filled in with white paint after the OD was applied. The book is a bit vague about the right side aft fuselage "Swoose" markings and how they made it through the OD painting. I can't find any reference after that painting that would suggest it was ever repainted again.

I know this may be thought of as a "kinda dumb" idea; but, why not a "split" restoration.

One side painted as she was at Clark, and the other in her "final official colors".

I know there would be a problem with the nose ect. But; lets face it the interior is not really a problem as no one other than the museum staff will ever see it again anyway.

Joe

I doubt NASM would trade for another B-17 since they already have one. I've heard that they desperately want a B-24 though. I'm probably wrong but my bet is that either the one at Castle or the one at Hill will be moving.

James

I would think that if they did get a B-24 it would come from either Barksdale or Castle.

jimkendall, that is not always true about the interior of the aircraft at the NMUSAF. We treat each aircraft as a memorial for the pilots, crew members, ground crew, and any one else that served with each aircraft type. When a veteran comes through that has a special connection to the aircraft in the collection, with higher management approval they try to let the veteran get in it. Now this all depends in how easy access is to the aircraft. At the museum we try to make the aircraft as complete as we can.

_________________
Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Director

Yeah, you're right Barksdale is probably more likely than Hill.

James

I should have said she aquired several schemes post war. The OD/black scheme at March, and the stripped back to metal upper surfaces done later. When?? Regardless, bt the time she got to Andrews, she was an old PR platform, which is what General Brett didn't want. As Brownstein points out, he wanted he scrapped, rather than keep her as a testimony to a certain time period and crew, which is what we're debating now.

I think she should be rebuilt to D standards and either cleaned up and placed in the NMF or O.D. over gray. Whatever the choice, the Swoose is famous, and the art work should remain.

_________________
Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Director

A split restoration has precedence. The B-24 at Pima for many years had one side painted to represent an Army Air Corps B-24 and the other side to represent the last paint scheme she wore in Indian Air Force colors.

I agree, since the one at Hill is not a real B-24. It has so many "fake" parts in it, that it would seem to go totally against NASM's long-standing policy of authentic restorations. Even though, cosmetically, it looks like a real B-24, it's more of a PB4Y.

From what I've read (and by no means am I saying that is gospel) the Swoose was fitted with replacement wings INTENDED for B models in the Canal Zone.

The early models had thinner spar tubes, and the wings were fatiguing.
There was some directive that had all early wings replaced with later
model wings.

_________________
-Bill
B-17E 41-2595 "Desert Rat" Restoration Team

Bill,

I've read a statement that seems to back up your post. The wings that were installed were new-build, intended for field installation to upgrade the older aircraft. As I recall, they were structurally more like the F-model wing. Again, it's conjecture, and I couldn't find the reference back today if you paid me.

The paint scheme conversation got me to thinking on my way home from Houston. Would it be agreeable to have the airplane configured as it was just after General Brett decided to acquire it? As it sat at the repair depot it had camouflage and I very much doubt it was completely stripped of combat equipment at the very beginning. The Swoose art was applied at about this time, so it's feasible to "lock" the airplane in the very early stage of the war as it was when he got her and Frank Kurtz flew her. I'd personally thought NMF would be the most accurate possible scheme to use, either pre hostilities or later in the war, but the skin condition probably precludes going that way.

Just a thought,
Scott

I'll use the Brownstein book again as a source, and just as information offer this from page 110:

"The B models released by the newly arrive Es had been flown to Amarallio Army Air Field in Texas, and were no longer available as a source of cannabilized spare parts to repair the ailing Swoose. On the remote chance that he might yet find some spare parts, Crane toured the old France Field depot, which now was being used for dead storage. In a dark corner of a storage shed he made a monumental discovery--a pair of open crates resting side by side which contained two spanking new B-17B inboard wing panels. Somehow they had been overlooked in the move to Albrook, or they had been left for return to supply stores in the United States. At any rate, there were no records to indicate they had even existed."



Could be, but the photos I have certainly suggest it had faded OD uppersurfaces when it got to Andrews.

Whatever gets done I hope they just pick one scheme and use it. If there is one paintjob at work I dislike it is the half-n-half Liberator. Personally I think it should be either all Indian Air Force or all its real wartime markings as a RAF Liberator VI.

James

So when we get right down to it, what we're really looking at here, are three combat vet B17s, a D an F and a G.

Talk about 17 heaven. What a sight it would be to see all three restored and sitting on the ramp together, just once.

If I had my wish, the Swoose would go back to General Brett days too, about August 42 before the tub came off the bottom. As close to her combat days as possible.

True..so instead of NMF, might we compromise and settle for a really nice 'silver' paint job?

I too would like to see the ventral gun tub returned..

_________________
He bowls overhand...He is the most interesting man in the world.
"In Peace Japan Breeds War", Eckstein, Harper and Bros., 3rd ed. 1943(1927, 1928,1942)
"Leave it to ol' Slim. I got ideas...and they're all vile, baby." South Dakota Slim
"Ahh..."The Deuce", 28,000 pounds of motherly love." quote from some Mojave Grunt
DBF