Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:53 pm
The above is an extremely sound piece of advice.k5083 wrote:No, don't burn your bridges. Eager photographers are a lot more common than warbird collectors, and warbird collectors talk to each other. From your description it seems RG were heavy handed, especially given that you had a relationship with them, but such things happen sometimes. It's too bad you've lost the relationship, I hope you tried to save it, but if you must end it, end it on the nicest terms possible. Venting ain't worth it sometimes.
???
Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:05 pm
My point was not to just leave but explain why......
A couple of additional points. What you've said you've done so far is sensible and reasonable. If I were you, I'd have a quiet word with the volunteer coordinator (or whoever your main contact is) initially, and establish if this is how they wish to work with their unpaid volunteers.
Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Thanks, Jack, that was my point. Silently vanishing volunteers benefit nobody, so it would be to everyone's loss to just depart or be nasty about it.
Indeed, warbird collectors do talk to each other; so does everyone else; reputations are earned, even with the scuttlebut that's passed around.
I would hope this was a zealous error by a Russell Group; I'd hope they'd get the chance to review this effort before it becomes policy.
Should it become policy, they'll join the select group of less popular organisations due to poor PR.
I'd like to hear how this pans out.
Indeed, warbird collectors do talk to each other; so does everyone else; reputations are earned, even with the scuttlebut that's passed around.
I would hope this was a zealous error by a Russell Group; I'd hope they'd get the chance to review this effort before it becomes policy.
Should it become policy, they'll join the select group of less popular organisations due to poor PR.
I'd like to hear how this pans out.
Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:57 pm
Thanks, Jack, that was my point. Silently vanishing volunteers benefit nobody, so it would be to everyone's loss to just depart or be nasty about it.
Indeed, warbird collectors do talk to each other; so does everyone else; reputations are earned, even with the scuttlebut that's passed around.
I would hope this was a zealous error by a Russell Group; I'd hope they'd get the chance to review this effort before it becomes policy.
Should it become policy, they'll join the select group of less popular organisations due to poor PR.
I'd like to hear how this pans out.
Thanks again folks for the advice:
As for still volunteering with the Russell's, i just can't afford to run the risk of legal action against me and my young family. The Russell's made it quite clear that I would have been the 4th photographer that they have taken legal action against, and i just can't risk that kind of stress since I did not profit one cent from my images being posted on Photobucket.
As for them talking to other owners and such, I say go ahead, I have sent images and video worldwide to various pilots and owners at my own expense and will continue to do so if requested. I was warned when I started working with the Russell's that they were hard to work with, I guess i should have took the warning more seriously.
Thanks again
Dave C
Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:33 pm
Ontario-Warbird wrote:The Russell's made it quite clear that I would have been the 4th photographer that they have taken legal action against.........
They sound like REAL nice people to work with. Thanks for the heads-up Dave.
Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:48 pm
Ontario-Warbird wrote:The Russell's made it quite clear that I would have been the 4th photographer that they have taken legal action against, and i just can't risk that kind of stress since I did not profit one cent from my images being posted on Photobucket.
They must be so proud of themselves.
Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:01 am
Both Webshots and Photobucket sell photos...I believe Webshots has a "pro" version that allows you to make money off your shots as a generic joint venture. The best way to prevent them from selling the images is to photoshop or image edit a transparent "Copyright" straight through the middle of the photo. That would make any potential buyers contact you direct. The only place I've ever run into this was the FHC...even they were cool with photos as long as there was at least one person in the shot standing near the aircraft.
my .02
my .02
????
Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:19 am
If you keep your account private it won't be a issue and you can share by link with whom you please to.
Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:39 am
Never heard of the Russell Group (I've been in a cave?), but they sound like some first-class troops!
Speaking of the FHC, JimH, I have been doing sketches for a painting of their combat-veteran P-51D Upupa Epops ..., and a year or two ago I emailed them asking for 'walkaround' photos to confirm details of the plane's markings, referring them to my site and stating that I'd love to do a painting of their beautiful kite. No reply.
Oh well.
BUT, heh heh, the good thing about being an artist is that I can still create the art way down here in the Confederacy ... without ever visiting them! Luckily, through the Internet, I've gathered enough "walkaround" photos on my own and still plan on doing the piece - to honor the plane and original pilot.
Wade
Speaking of the FHC, JimH, I have been doing sketches for a painting of their combat-veteran P-51D Upupa Epops ..., and a year or two ago I emailed them asking for 'walkaround' photos to confirm details of the plane's markings, referring them to my site and stating that I'd love to do a painting of their beautiful kite. No reply.
Oh well.
BUT, heh heh, the good thing about being an artist is that I can still create the art way down here in the Confederacy ... without ever visiting them! Luckily, through the Internet, I've gathered enough "walkaround" photos on my own and still plan on doing the piece - to honor the plane and original pilot.
Wade
?????
Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:28 pm
On no your not Wade!!!!!
DON BEERBOWER's
DON BEERBOWER's
Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:51 pm
I still have the pix you sent me - in fact, I'm using one of the cockpit shots of Don B. for reference with my current piece, which shows two 4FG Mustangs on the ground just after firing up - with mechs all around, etc. I'll post the pencil study here soon - can't think of a title yet, though.
Speaking of art 'titles', I have an upcoming commission featuring the Frecce Tricolori set against a beautiful Italian backdrop - the latter will be based on a photo the client took from his balcony - he wants the jet demo team in there sort of giving him a private airshow. The title? What else? The Italian Job.
Well, that's MY working title, anyway ...
Wade
Speaking of art 'titles', I have an upcoming commission featuring the Frecce Tricolori set against a beautiful Italian backdrop - the latter will be based on a photo the client took from his balcony - he wants the jet demo team in there sort of giving him a private airshow. The title? What else? The Italian Job.
Well, that's MY working title, anyway ...
Wade
Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:38 pm
Just another 2 cents worth... I was in the advertising photo business for about 20 years and we came to realize (admitt) that photographers were being ripped off... especially when digital retouching was introduced to the masses via Photoshop.
"Pieces" of your work can easily be stollen and used in another photo and you might never know it.
It is however, the responsibility of the photographer to explain UP-FRONT what the deal is. Free or not.
Are you giving the photos away? That's cool, as long as everyone knows it.
Generally, if you shoot something, it's your shot. Your Copyright. If you did it for someone, they paid or compensated you for one use, multiple uses, or a "buy out" -which means they own it and you give up all rights to the shot.
That stuff has to be spelled out up front to avoid this kind of mess.
Letting a website host your shots is dangerous because they evidently can sell your work. There should be an option there that would not allow your photos to be sold, only viewed. Maybe the Pro site on Smug Mug? I'm not sure.
Unfortunatley most everything can be taken right off the web -although in low res- and that has to be taken into consideration too.
In any case, the group you did the work for was wrong to come down so hard on a volunteer. As others here have said, it's worth a conversation where you explain what happened and your intentions. But any group that threatens legal action without contacting the offending party is probably not worth your time, and will only cause you grief in the future.
Dave
"Pieces" of your work can easily be stollen and used in another photo and you might never know it.
It is however, the responsibility of the photographer to explain UP-FRONT what the deal is. Free or not.
Are you giving the photos away? That's cool, as long as everyone knows it.
Generally, if you shoot something, it's your shot. Your Copyright. If you did it for someone, they paid or compensated you for one use, multiple uses, or a "buy out" -which means they own it and you give up all rights to the shot.
That stuff has to be spelled out up front to avoid this kind of mess.
Letting a website host your shots is dangerous because they evidently can sell your work. There should be an option there that would not allow your photos to be sold, only viewed. Maybe the Pro site on Smug Mug? I'm not sure.
Unfortunatley most everything can be taken right off the web -although in low res- and that has to be taken into consideration too.
In any case, the group you did the work for was wrong to come down so hard on a volunteer. As others here have said, it's worth a conversation where you explain what happened and your intentions. But any group that threatens legal action without contacting the offending party is probably not worth your time, and will only cause you grief in the future.
Dave
Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:56 pm
AeroTRrat wrote:Generally, if you shoot something, it's your shot. Your Copyright. If you did it for someone, they paid or compensated you for one use, multiple uses, or a "buy out" -which means they own it and you give up all rights to the shot.
That stuff has to be spelled out up front to avoid this kind of mess.
Letting a website host your shots is dangerous because they evidently can sell your work. There should be an option there that would not allow your photos to be sold, only viewed. Maybe the Pro site on Smug Mug? I'm not sure.
Dave
You need to read the fine print when you post your photos onto website. Flickr has a "creative commons" license by default - which basically means you agree to share your work and others can create derivative works from it. I believe you can opt out of that, but you have to take the action. Same as it would seem with photobucket's sales policy.
Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:50 pm
Chicoartist wrote:I still have the pix you sent me - in fact, I'm using one of the cockpit shots of Don B. for reference with my current piece, which shows two 4FG Mustangs on the ground just after firing up - with mechs all around, etc. I'll post the pencil study here soon - can't think of a title yet, though.
Speaking of art 'titles', I have an upcoming commission featuring the Frecce Tricolori set against a beautiful Italian backdrop - the latter will be based on a photo the client took from his balcony - he wants the jet demo team in there sort of giving him a private airshow. The title? What else? The Italian Job.
Well, that's MY working title, anyway ...
Wade
Will the plane be flying backwards, upside down, and dropping a bomb on the Chinise Embassy?
Just poking fun at the Italians--They're a top notch crew and had some beautiful planes during the war that never get enough attention. That they were led by an idiot isn't thier fault and I think you project is totally killer!
Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:40 pm
Welcome to the Russell Group.... I've heard too much about them. I know of at least one volunteer who left the organization due to differences with Mr. Russell. I'm surprised he even has an air show. From all accounts I've heard from people that know or knew him, he is not a nice person to deal with. I'm sorry this happened to you, it's a shame.