Erickson Messerschmitt flies

DH82EH · **Posted:** Tue May 02, 2017 11:27 am

Thanks for the straight goods JM.
Always happy to get info from the source.
The 109 looks fantastic! I love the ingenuity used to make this happen.
Very clever to use the original blast scoops to cool the exhaust.

Welcome to WIX! :drink3:

Andy Scott

lmritger · **Posted:** Tue May 02, 2017 3:42 pm

mukflyer wrote:

Hello, I am one of the people who help build the "Erickson 109". I have come here today to post some information to help answer questions.

Why an Allison? Because it is cheaper to overhaul and has a better record of use, the airframe is a true Buchon and we are not trying to call it a "True 109" like many of the DB powered Buchon's are called.

Is it upright or inverted? Upright. How do we cool exhaust? There are several small scoops on the ORIGINAL 109 cowling that we installed that are un-used for the Allison, with those we were able to get plenty of air across the exhaust pipes.

Is the cowl original? Yes the cowl, all of it, is ORIGINAL and sourced from several places in Europe. Others have stated that we copied the Evergreen 109 cowl. We only used it to test if real cowl would fit, after that we set about finding real cowls.

Who built the plane Pacific Fighters or Erickson? The plane was first sent to Pacific fighter, but after paint striping, electrical and some wing and rudder sheet metal work. the plane was brought to the Erickson Museum in Oregon where it was built. Erickson designed the engine mount and a local aerospace company produced it. To answer the question, I would say 90% of the restoration took place over 18 months at Erickson.

John Romaine flew it, and was very pleased. It is slightly faster than a stock Buchon.

Is the rudder correct, Yes look at your books, there were 3 different rudders used on the "Tall" vertical. All with different tab configurations and lights.

Thank you
JM

First off, let me congratulate you and the entire team on this outstanding engineering feat! This was a seriously "out of the box" solution to what at one time seemed like an irreconcilable dilemma... how to preserve the sleek look of the wartime 109 with an upright-mounted engine? What you have accomplished is nothing short of amazing, and the team deserves every accolade and word of praise for the successful development and implementation of this solution.

Now, as to that rudder... having written two well regarded books on the 109, I think I'm fairly well qualified to say that no, it's not quite right. However, it's a small detail, and if the slightly exaggerated trailing edge curvature offers better low-speed control than a strictly correct wartime rudder, then the tradeoff is more than worthwhile and certainly not worth an argument.

Do you know if any discussions have taken place about making a conversion kit commercially available to other Buchon operators who might be interested in this approach?

Well done once again!

Lynn

Zac Yates · **Posted:** Tue May 02, 2017 3:50 pm

Thanks JM, much appreciated! I imagine this must have been an exciting project to be involved with.

marine air · **Posted:** Tue May 02, 2017 4:54 pm

It looks great and no doubt flies great. This is a huge step in showing what can be done for the aircraft types that engines are rare or not available. Like the Kawasaki Ki-61 Tony and other inline types.

JohnTerrell · **Posted:** Tue May 02, 2017 5:17 pm

Thank you Jim for your post, and I'm terribly sorry for my confusion with regard to the connection to the Evergreen example in relation to the cowlings.

Zac Yates · **Posted:** Tue May 02, 2017 11:54 pm

marine air wrote:

Like the Kawasaki Ki-61 Tony

Now there's a great candidate. Good thinking!!

airnutz · **Posted:** Wed May 03, 2017 9:21 am

KiwiZac wrote:

marine air wrote:

Like the Kawasaki Ki-61 Tony

Now there's a great candidate. Good thinking!!

The other one that came to mind, was the He100 after JonL mentioned it(tho I fail to see the resemblance)...altho there are no current airframe donors for the type.

airnutz · **Posted:** Wed May 03, 2017 9:28 am

Mukflyer, thanks for cluing us in on the project. You guys did an amazing job! The Gustav is a stunner! Per your info...So ya'lls total solution to protecting the surrounding real estate from exhaust heat was the air scoops? Ya'll didn't use ceramic coating and/or heatwrap on the exhaust extensions? Thanks Sir!

Warbird Kid · **Posted:** Wed May 03, 2017 9:45 am

The Allison V-1710 does truly seem to be the universal engine. It's been used in all of the new-build Yaks out there, as well as the supplement for Flying Combat Heritage Collection's (or whatever they call themselves) IL-2 Sturmovik. We also have the Flug Werk 190D. Not to mention the couple of full-scale Spitfire replicas out there too. And now we have a 109 using the same power plant. Have any other aircraft been re-engined with the Allison?

JohnTerrell · **Posted:** Wed May 03, 2017 9:59 am

airnutz wrote:

Per your info...So ya'lls total solution to protecting the surrounding real estate from exhaust heat was the air scoops? Ya'll didn't use ceramic coating and/or heatwrap on the exhaust extensions?

Clearly a wrapping of some kind was used, as illustrated in this EAC photo:

JohnTerrell · **Posted:** Wed May 03, 2017 10:01 am

Warbird Kid wrote:

The Allison V-1710 does truly seem to be the universal engine. It's been used in all of the new-build Yaks out there, as well as the supplement for Flying Combat Heritage Collection's (or whatever they call themselves) IL-2 Sturmovik. We also have the Flug Werk 190D. Not to mention the couple of full-scale Spitfire replicas out there too. And now we have a 109 using the same power plant. Have any other aircraft been re-engined with the Allison?

Allisons have also been used in the reproduction Mig-3's that have flown. There was some talk at one time of the work being done in Australia on the Ki-61 restorations to re-engine them with Allisons, but I've also read that Jerry Yagen's is supposed to have a good, correct/original engine for it, a Kawasaki license-built DB 601, otherwise known as the Ha-40 (though it of course has proven difficult to find parts for it). With DB 601's and DB 605's seemingly coming out of the woodwork in recent years, I wonder if such an engine as a DB 601 could also be used in-place of an Ha-40 engine, in a straight-forward/little level of modification sort of deal (very deep pockets required, either way).

airnutz · **Posted:** Wed May 03, 2017 10:13 am

JohnTerrell wrote:

Clearly a wrapping of some kind was used, as illustrated in this EAC photo:

Maybe for your eyes young fella! :lol:

Thanks John!

EDIT
And I am still curious if they went the extra mile in protecting the cowl and surroundingsfrom heat with ceramic coating of the exhaust pipes before the wrapping?

Dave Hadfield · **Joined:** Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:31 pm **Posts:** 1672

I'd be interested in knowing how they solved the oil cooler question. An Allison is designed to remove up to 25% of the engine's heat via the oil -- quite different from a Merlin, although I don't know about the DB.

I wonder how the engine coolant and oil are cooled in this installation?

lmritger · **Posted:** Fri May 05, 2017 8:39 am

Dave Hadfield wrote:

I'd be interested in knowing how they solved the oil cooler question. An Allison is designed to remove up to 25% of the engine's heat via the oil -- quite different from a Merlin, although I don't know about the DB.

I wonder how the engine coolant and oil are cooled in this installation?

The coolant is an easy one... just looking at the photos, it's clear the wing radiators are being used, and it appears they've even kept the thermostatic flap position regulators which open or close the small flap in front of the radiator as well as the lower trailing edge flaps to allow more or less air through the radiators while the engine is running. They also made a point of stating they used an Erla-style lower cowling which mounted the largest oil cooler fitted to any Bf 109 variant during the war (I think it's an Fo 870 but would have to double check); I don't know anything about the surface area or flow rate, but that was good enough for the DB 605AS and D, so I would expect it would suffice for the somewhat less powerful V-1710.

Perhaps the engineering guys will chime in on this, as it's an interesting observation and one which will be of significant interest to anyone contemplating such a switch in the future.

Cheers,

LYnn

Warbird Kid · **Posted:** Fri May 05, 2017 9:10 am

Boy what I wouldn't give for that package deal of four Buchons now. Restore the airframes as is, and fabricate four new E-model QECs. And boom; four (somewhat accurate) looking Battle of Britain BF-109Es. Ready for Ridley Scott's new Battle of Britain movie.

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