Another buried aircraft story

DoraNineFan · **Joined:** Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:37 pm **Posts:** 672

F3A-1 wrote:

Dan,

In 1986 Lefty Gardner and I were in the Pacific searching another site of Mustangs, etc that I had photos of being buried. We had dinner with the local Base Commander, that had been stationed at Clark Field in the past. He knew of the buried P38s and during a base construction project several sections of the P-38s were unearthed. They were very badly corroded. I also have photos of the P-38s piled up and burned before being buried. This site may not yield many restorable parts.

I have not heard any facts pertaining to the P-47s, but suspect the same crule treatment.

Pirate Lex

Hope you and the family are well!

There was also the Fw190 that was dug up from a school yard in France? Not sure of the history of why it was buried there.

I wish permission could be given to dig at known sites. I cannot remember the RAF base, but captured German aircraft were buried there after evaluation at the conclusion of WW2 and parts were found during a construction project many years ago. Anything to yield another example would be productive.

The Freemon Field dig project has concluded according to their Facebook page. They recovered an impressive collection of parts, but no complete aircraft. I believe they were searching for the remains of another He-219, Do-335, Me262, and a Fw190, Fw190D. A data plate would have been a good find.

Clark Field has been discussed before and I still believe it would be worth a dig because dozens of P-38s were stacked there and burned. Surely some parts or data plates could be found for more P-38 restorations.

Pathfinder · **Joined:** Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:35 pm **Posts:** 587

In the early 80's the curator of the USAFM told me that the post-WW1 'accumulation' of aircraft were removed from the hangar they were being housed in and buried in the lot adjacent. Subsequently it was paved over as a parking lot. All of this pre-dated FTD at Seymour and the USAFM in Dayton.

maxum96 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:46 pm

AvroAvian wrote:

P-38 White 33 was buried, along with others....

White 33 consisted of only the gondola, center section and engine nacelles when it was dug up in 1999. Otherwise it was totally stripped and just a partial shell.

No one has been able to cite a single case of a COMPLETE WWII aircraft having been intentionally dumped only to be recovered years later. You'd think with all the WWII aircraft that were built and all the stories of supposedly buried COMPLETE WWII aircraft that someone would have found at least one by now. Until someone finds one and shows it to the world, I'm not buying the buried COMPLETE aircraft or buried new plane in a crate stories.

Stoney · **Posted:** Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:01 am

About 12 yaers ago I was talking to a ret. Major at OSH from the taiwanee (sp) AF and he said he saw a butch of P-66s buried in china that they were going to use on the commies later. One can hope!

Versatile · **Joined:** Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:35 pm **Posts:** 636

Pieces are pieces and parts are parts. I don't think these are complete aircraft but definitely worth the work.

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/people/photos/odgers/

Dave Hadfield · **Joined:** Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:31 pm **Posts:** 1672

A dose of unpleasant and intrusive reality here -- sheet metal that has been underground for 70 years, or underwater, is useless except as history and provenance. It corrodes. Even aluminum...

For a flying airplane, that metal would have to have rested in a pristine place, dry and anerobic.

I'm involved with restorations. Often you can rebuild and use original castings and large-metal items. But not the structure of the aircraft unless the conditions were perfect. It all has to be replaced.

So, if you pull one of these prospects from imperfect storage, you can take that and add $USD2M for a flying airplane, depending on how rare the parts are.

Sorry to be pessimistic, but I am dealing with 4 projects right now -- Spitfire, Hurricane, Swordfish and Fury -- and have to face the reality of costs every day.

Dave

PinecastleAAF · **Joined:** Fri May 25, 2007 4:50 pm **Posts:** 1028

Quote:

A dose of unpleasant and intrusive reality here -- sheet metal that has been underground for 70 years, or underwater, is useless except as history and provenance. It corrodes. Even aluminum...

Add to that all the other stuff like chemicals and what not that would have gone into the same hole. Hopefully someday someone will pull a complete aircraft in decent shape from the ground........but I doubt it. What I find interesting is the number of stories seem to be on the increase. Speaking to the curator of the Camp Blanding Museum a few years ago he told me a story of buried Springfield rifles on the base after the war. The Army denied the museum personnel permission to dig when they asked. In the Orlando Sentinel 25-30 years ago there was a story about a pit at the old Sanford Naval Station filled with airplane parts, a helicopter and lots of 55 gallon drums. There are still the rest of the Greenland P-38's. Probably more viable than anything else and even that would have to have most of the sheet metal replaced. Here's keeping my fingers crossed for that P-43 in a crate. Might as well dream big.

hang the expense · **Posted:** Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:02 am

maxum96 wrote:

F3A-1 wrote:

When I was 15, I dug up parts from two buried C-45's, an AT-6 and their R-985 and R-1340's in Carbondale IL, that the local university buried rather than sell. Since that early "Indiana Jones" type experience, I have dug up and recovered other wrecks from crash sites and dumps in the USA and elsewhere. I, would look at this as a possible site to excavate.

I have stood on ground that Corsair parts protruded from, and been unable to obtain permission to dig. I also have trust in personal interviews of witnesses of buried Naval fighters at other NAS sites. Myself and others have unearthed thousands of pounds of buried WWII German aircraft parts in Indiana. I have found photographic proof of airplanes being buried in OK and other places. I agree that in most cases now, the corrosion will make most of the parts not even patterns. I would however, urge everyone not to discourage someone searching for our aviation history, in trying to recover what little is left of it.

Let us cheer them on!

Pirate Lex, I'll be you'r wingman!

Parts yes, entire aircraft nope. Name one instance of where an entire intact aircraft was purposely dumped, buried and recovered decades later? The WWII aircraft that even come close to fitting that description were all crash landed in extremely remote areas or deep underwater. I know of not one case of an aircraft in a crate that was buried and later found.

You need to contact John Paul and ask him or his son to post the pics of the buried P-40 they recovered in Canada and yes it was the entire aircraft.I saw the pictures and this was way for photoshop.I think that bird ended up with Cole Pay but I might be wrong about that.

hang the expense · **Posted:** Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:05 am

Versatile wrote:

I remember seeing photos of a group slowly bringing up a P-38 in Alaska.Slow tedious hard work .
IRRC i read it hear.
Many bases when closed down in the USA and they buried everything including desks and the occasional aircraft or multiple aircraft. I was told that say a AC had problems and landed at a base and was deemed not worth repairing it and was towed off to the side or out back. Such as a Navy AC emergency lands at a USAF base in Oklahoma. AC was not worth repairing etc. Pilot goes back to his base by other means and the Navy AC is just a problem for the base commander. The base was either closing or just cleaning up the base and base commander said get rid of it. Fastest and cheapest way was a hole out back at the base dump. While talking to a Base Commander in Ok. we developed this idea. Bs'ing me i can't say. I do believe him that he was always getting approached by people searching for buried items by what ever tripped their trigger. Such as barrel after barrel of buried 45 pistols etc.

I did the basic research and the logistics for a guy that went to Alaska. He came back with a stirrup
off a early P-38 from a bury site on Indian ground. He said you could crawl back in among them.

They are out there.

That was the dump out on cold bay.tons of NOS parts but they were junk.

Versatile · **Joined:** Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:35 pm **Posts:** 636

hang the expense wrote:

Versatile wrote:

I remember seeing photos of a group slowly bringing up a P-38 in Alaska.Slow tedious hard work .
IRRC i read it hear.
Many bases when closed down in the USA and they buried everything including desks and the occasional aircraft or multiple aircraft. I was told that say a AC had problems and landed at a base and was deemed not worth repairing it and was towed off to the side or out back. Such as a Navy AC emergency lands at a USAF base in Oklahoma. AC was not worth repairing etc. Pilot goes back to his base by other means and the Navy AC is just a problem for the base commander. The base was either closing or just cleaning up the base and base commander said get rid of it. Fastest and cheapest way was a hole out back at the base dump. While talking to a Base Commander in Ok. we developed this idea. Bs'ing me i can't say. I do believe him that he was always getting approached by people searching for buried items by what ever tripped their trigger. Such as barrel after barrel of buried 45 pistols etc.

I did the basic research and the logistics for a guy that went to Alaska. He came back with a stirrup
off a early P-38 from a bury site on Indian ground. He said you could crawl back in among them.

They are out there.

That was the dump out on cold bay.tons of NOS parts but they were junk.

The stirrup i saw was not junk.

John Dupre · **Posted:** Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:13 pm

I saw that someone else referenced the Paul family P-40 that was dug up and restored. Granted that was 30 or so years ago when corrosion would have had a lot less time to work.

I know that for several years in Lawrence or Haverhill, Mass there was an FM-2 Wildcat on display. I met a man who remembered when it was delivered from New Jersey with just test time since new. He watched the aircraft degrade over the years at a public park until in the 1970s it was moved to Lawrence Airport. It sat there for several years until the powers that be had it dragged to an adjacent dump. The man continued to watch it when he drove by until one day in the late 70s it was gone. After that he " heard" that the dump used an excavator to dig a trench and bury the Wildcat. Of course they might have used the excavator to chop the aircraft up and sell the aluminum alloy. It might have been transported to some other place for storage or restoration. All anyone really knows is that one day it was there and the next it was gone.

Not buried but I believe one of the surviving flyable P-39s was abandoned in the Southwest on a delivery flight to a reclamation center in 1945. It remained there for 20 or so years before being recovered and restored.

I have heard a similar story quite recently about a Mustang that landed in a field in Rhode Island in August 1945 where a number of aircraft had force landed during the war. The farmer by then was used to removing aircraft to his barn and waiting for the government to recover them. No one ever came for the Mustang and supposedly it remained in the barn for nearly 60 years. My informant at the time claimed to have visited the barn after the aircraft was recovered and found a large aircraft propeller from some other type. Haven't heard any more about a time capsule Mustang but there are lot more people really tuned into this than I am.

Versatile · **Joined:** Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:35 pm **Posts:** 636

John Dupre wrote:

I saw that someone else referenced the Paul family P-40 that was dug up and restored. Granted that was 30 or so years ago when corrosion would have had a lot less time to work.

I know that for several years in Lawrence or Haverhill, Mass there was an FM-2 Wildcat on display. I met a man who remembered when it was delivered from New Jersey with just test time since new. He watched the aircraft degrade over the years at a public park until in the 1970s it was moved to Lawrence Airport. It sat there for several years until the powers that be had it dragged to an adjacent dump. The man continued to watch it when he drove by until one day in the late 70s it was gone. After that he " heard" that the dump used an excavator to dig a trench and bury the Wildcat. Of course they might have used the excavator to chop the aircraft up and sell the aluminum alloy. It might have been transported to some other place for storage or restoration. All anyone really knows is that one day it was there and the next it was gone.

Not buried but I believe one of the surviving flyable P-39s was abandoned in the Southwest on a delivery flight to a reclamation center in 1945. It remained there for 20 or so years before being recovered and restored.

I have heard a similar story quite recently about a Mustang that landed in a field in Rhode Island in August 1945 where a number of aircraft had force landed during the war. The farmer by then was used to removing aircraft to his barn and waiting for the government to recover them. No one ever came for the Mustang and supposedly it remained in the barn for nearly 60 years. My informant at the time claimed to have visited the barn after the aircraft was recovered and found a large aircraft propeller from some other type. Haven't heard any more about a time capsule Mustang but there are lot more people really tuned into this than I am.

I have trouble with this story. Several years ago the St. Joseph News Press in the midwest published a story about a man that had a contract to go recover these aircraft including the wrecks as well. This was during the war.

davidwomacks · **Joined:** Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:34 pm **Posts:** 195

It'd be easy for a plane or two to slip through the cracks. Wonder if the Navy would be more willing to let one of their own dig on the land? I have archeological training and was selected for a Navy pilot slot (waiting to go to OCS) once I get though that and pilot training if I get stationed somewhere where stuff is buried,I might ask the worse they will say is no. Yes all the stuff recovered will belong to the Navy but it's better at the museum in Pcola then rotting in the dirt.

John Dupre · **Posted:** Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:10 pm

Versatile wrote:

John Dupre wrote:

I saw that someone else referenced the Paul family P-40 that was dug up and restored. Granted that was 30 or so years ago when corrosion would have had a lot less time to work.

I know that for several years in Lawrence or Haverhill, Mass there was an FM-2 Wildcat on display. I met a man who remembered when it was delivered from New Jersey with just test time since new. He watched the aircraft degrade over the years at a public park until in the 1970s it was moved to Lawrence Airport. It sat there for several years until the powers that be had it dragged to an adjacent dump. The man continued to watch it when he drove by until one day in the late 70s it was gone. After that he " heard" that the dump used an excavator to dig a trench and bury the Wildcat. Of course they might have used the excavator to chop the aircraft up and sell the aluminum alloy. It might have been transported to some other place for storage or restoration. All anyone really knows is that one day it was there and the next it was gone.

Not buried but I believe one of the surviving flyable P-39s was abandoned in the Southwest on a delivery flight to a reclamation center in 1945. It remained there for 20 or so years before being recovered and restored.

I have heard a similar story quite recently about a Mustang that landed in a field in Rhode Island in August 1945 where a number of aircraft had force landed during the war. The farmer by then was used to removing aircraft to his barn and waiting for the government to recover them. No one ever came for the Mustang and supposedly it remained in the barn for nearly 60 years. My informant at the time claimed to have visited the barn after the aircraft was recovered and found a large aircraft propeller from some other type. Haven't heard any more about a time capsule Mustang but there are lot more people really tuned into this than I am.

I have trouble with this story. Several years ago the St. Joseph News Press in the midwest published a story about a man that had a contract to go recover these aircraft including the wrecks as well. This was during the war.

That may well be true but I seriously doubt that an organization in the Midwest would travel all the way to Rhode Island to recover one aircraft especially at the close of the war.

Versatile · **Joined:** Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:35 pm **Posts:** 636

John Dupre wrote:

Versatile wrote:

John Dupre wrote:

I saw that someone else referenced the Paul family P-40 that was dug up and restored. Granted that was 30 or so years ago when corrosion would have had a lot less time to work.

I know that for several years in Lawrence or Haverhill, Mass there was an FM-2 Wildcat on display. I met a man who remembered when it was delivered from New Jersey with just test time since new. He watched the aircraft degrade over the years at a public park until in the 1970s it was moved to Lawrence Airport. It sat there for several years until the powers that be had it dragged to an adjacent dump. The man continued to watch it when he drove by until one day in the late 70s it was gone. After that he " heard" that the dump used an excavator to dig a trench and bury the Wildcat. Of course they might have used the excavator to chop the aircraft up and sell the aluminum alloy. It might have been transported to some other place for storage or restoration. All anyone really knows is that one day it was there and the next it was gone.

Not buried but I believe one of the surviving flyable P-39s was abandoned in the Southwest on a delivery flight to a reclamation center in 1945. It remained there for 20 or so years before being recovered and restored.

I have heard a similar story quite recently about a Mustang that landed in a field in Rhode Island in August 1945 where a number of aircraft had force landed during the war. The farmer by then was used to removing aircraft to his barn and waiting for the government to recover them. No one ever came for the Mustang and supposedly it remained in the barn for nearly 60 years. My informant at the time claimed to have visited the barn after the aircraft was recovered and found a large aircraft propeller from some other type. Haven't heard any more about a time capsule Mustang but there are lot more people really tuned into this than I am.

I have trouble with this story. Several years ago the St. Joseph News Press in the midwest published a story about a man that had a contract to go recover these aircraft including the wrecks as well. This was during the war.

That may well be true but I seriously doubt that an organization in the Midwest would travel all the way to Rhode Island to recover one aircraft especially at the close of the war.

He wasn't an organisation at all. He had a contract for the area described. There were others with contracts all across the USA.

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