Liberty Belle B-17 fire question

Chuck Giese · **Posted:** Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:27 am

Noha307 wrote:

Thanks for the photos of the Liberty Belle's current condition.

I talked with one of their people when the Memphis Bell came to Cincinnati. When I asked about what survived, the one thing I remember him telling me was that both the waist guns and the ball turret were found in good condition sticking muzzle down into the field. Apparently, when the airframe around them melted they just fell right out and stuck in the field.

Not sure who you talked to, but that information was incorrect. The ball turret was partially destroyed.

Noha307 · **Posted:** Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:02 pm

maxum96 wrote:

Noha307 wrote:

I think he said the turret is made out of cast iron. Any idea if this is correct?)

Nope. Cast iron would be incredibly heavy. The were made out of cast aluminum.

Yeah, I thought that would be the case. Honestly, when I was writing that post, I had considered the weight factor - it did seem a bit strange. I should have though it a second time and maybe I would have realized how ridiculous that sounds. :shock:

Anyway, I really don't know where I came up with iron, my memory on that specific detail wasn't the best. I thought I remembered him saying it was made out of cast something. I think I just "supplied" the iron part myself. It was probably just the only type of cast anything I could think of.

Chuck Giese wrote:

Noha307 wrote:

Thanks for the photos of the Liberty Belle's current condition.

I talked with one of their people when the Memphis Bell came to Cincinnati. When I asked about what survived, the one thing I remember him telling me was that both the waist guns and the ball turret were found in good condition sticking muzzle down into the field. Apparently, when the airframe around them melted they just fell right out and stuck in the field.

Not sure who you talked to, but that information was incorrect. The ball turret was partially destroyed.

Thanks for the correction, I'd rather be told what I'm saying is wrong than spreading false information around. I'm almost completely certain the man I talked to was one of the flight crew with the Memphis Belle; I remember because we were on the ramp at the time. (That's not the only reason - I'm not that dumb!) While the "cast iron ball turret" remark (which I'll probably be hearing about for a while now :wink:

) was most likely "my creation", the info about the guns, specifically the part about them being found muzzle first in the ground, was what he said.

Now that I've finished making myself look like a complete fool, I'll go sit in the corner. :roll:

Travisd80elcam · **Posted:** Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:05 pm

Chuck is there any way we could get a little up date about you all's second B-17?

thanks if you can.
Travis

T-28mike · **Posted:** Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:41 am

It's Y'all, You-All is a rental truck. Just sayin.

Bluedharma · **Posted:** Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:47 am

I am assuming that all the signatures (from our nation's heroes inside the door) didn't make it?

-Paul Gordon

Chuck Giese · **Posted:** Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:07 pm

Bluedharma wrote:

I am assuming that all the signatures (from our nation's heroes inside the door) didn't make it?

-Paul Gordon

If the signatures were on the removable plate on the door, then we have all but the last one saved. If they were on the door itself, or on the last plate added at the start of the 2011 season, I think that they are gone. I don't remember if the door survived or not.

Chuck

Rod Schneider · **Posted:** Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:47 pm

Unfortunately, the rear door did not survive the fire. We do, however, have the tail gunners door and the forward crew door, both of which have signatures on them.

Bluedharma · **Posted:** Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:54 pm

Rod Schneider wrote:

Unfortunately, the rear door did not survive the fire. We do, however, have the tail gunners door and the forward crew door, both of which have signatures on them.

Thanks for the information. That is too bad.

I took about 1,000 "walk around" pictures of her when she was at KBJC in May 2011. I didn't have access to the inside of the door.
That was one thing I did want to get a picture of.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bluedharma ... 64/?page=2
-Paul Gordon

K5DH · **Posted:** Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:20 pm

This photo was taken by me March 8, 2009, on a flight out of Addison, Texas (operating from Cavanaugh Flight Museum).

Bluedharma · **Posted:** Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:22 pm

K5dh... That was the shot I wanted to get... I am glad someone has a picture of it. Shame to loose all those names...
-Paul

Hamilton H-37500 · **Joined:** Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:06 pm **Posts:** 34

Another picture, taken when I flew out of Hayward, CA in 2009:

Chuck Giese · **Posted:** Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:42 pm

Travisd80elcam wrote:

Chuck is there any way we could get a little up date about you all's second B-17?

thanks if you can.
Travis

I've started a thread up on the forum at aerovintage.com. I'll try to update it a little more regularly.

Chuck

Travisd80elcam · **Posted:** Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:06 pm

Thanks For the update Chuck.

Travis :drink3:

Punisher05 · **Posted:** Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:34 am

Hey guys--I'm not trying to kick over any anthills here but I thought I might be able to share a little bit of inside baseball on Aircraft Rescue Fire Fighting; I've worked with and helped regulate those guys for seven years now.

Simply put, allowing the trucks to get bogged down and stuck in the mud is not an option. At FAR Part 139 airports (Airline service ones-in normal people speak) the number and availability of your ARFF crews are strictly regulated by the FAA. You have to have X number of trucks and operators (with commensurate equipment and foam) for Y number of daily departures over a certain fuselage length.

I say that because of this: IF your trucks break or go out of service (such as being stuck up to their axles) then you must reduce your ARFF Index. In other words, you have to limit the size aircraft you can safely allow at your airport. You can go from allowing 737s to only allowing E-145s and CRJs in just because your ARFF equipment goes down. Again, FAA regs.

Most of the ARFF guys I've worked with love airplanes as much as the folks in them, so I'm sure that was a heartbreaking but necessary call for them to make once the people were out.

Oh and BTW the small truck visible next to Liberty Belle as it burns is the absolute minimum sized truck an airport has to have under Part 139. It only holds (a) Index A. One vehicle carrying at least—

(1) 500 pounds of sodium-based dry chemical, halon 1211, or clean agent; or

(2) 450 pounds of potassium-based dry chemical and water with a commensurate quantity of AFFF to total 100 gallons for simultaneous dry chemical and AFFF application.

So it was probably the lightest vehicle that could make it to the scene, but not enough to do anything

Anyway just my $0.02. Hope that helps.

-Brandon

airnutz · **Posted:** Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:34 pm

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Liberty Belle B-17 fire question

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