Warbird Information Exchange

I've always wanted to give my youngest son, who is autistic, a ride in a warbird, but have been afraid to because I don't know how he would behave in the plane. I cannot be 100% sure he would not monkey with something he shouldn't, and have zero confidence that he could handle an emergency.

It is a shame, because he would most likely be fine, and I know he would love it.

My wife took him to an amusement park once, and he wanted to ride a rollercoaster. He had never ridden one before, and she was very nervous about trying it, but decided it would be OK since she was with him. They stood in line and, in the chaos of the boarding, he and his brother managed to board the coaster while she was forced to stay behind. That was probably the longest two minutes of her life. I think she was crying by the time he arrived back at the turnstile.

He had a blast.

My guess is a warbird flight would work out the same, but it still makes me nervous. Planes aren't quite as idiot-proof as modern coasters.

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What is red, furry and on your six?

When I was young (< 6 years old) I had a custom Butler backpack chute designed for a childs weight, height, etc. It had a static line that I hooked to the back of the seat in the 6. In flight, Dad would periodically ask me to open the canopy to check and see if I could do it... I could. So all I would have had to do is open the canopy and bail and not have to worry about pulling the chute. If you have your child in the backseat, and are concerned with their ability to operate a chute, this is your way to go. It's expensive, but will give you peace of mind.

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Taylor Stevenson

When I went for my T-6 ride at Warbird Adventures with Chuck Gardner, we briefed on the bailout procedure. He advised me that chute was on a lanyard so it would open automatically in the event of egress. That made me think about what if there was no lanyard. Maybe some of the skydivers on here can answer this question, What does 125 mph slipstream do to an unsuspecting individual who just had to jump out of a disabled airplane? I wondered, would I be able to bring my arms in and grab the d-ring? If so would I be strong enough to actually pull it against the slipstream? What if I was tumbling uncontrollably?

I guess when it comes down to it the chutes are really there to satisfy the FAA reg for acro. You can't do formation work with paying pax on board, so the risk of collision is downplayed (at least in a ride program anyway). At Geneseo last year I saw the CAF's Red Nose and Red Tail giving a ton of rides. I imagine the chutes were left as part of the seat? I can also imagine in the case of Red Tail the C model, the passenger trying to get out of that doghouse behind the pilot? It looked hard enough on the ground. I guess when it comes down to it, its not about kids, but on unsavy passengers in general?

So far most posts in this thread are fine and reasonable, except the strange 'cwmc' post, but my concern is not with a good well maintained airplane on the line and a good safe pilot flying it. It's when some unforseen mechanical issue happens that requires an egress, which in high performance warbirds could happen more so than with a C172, no matter what, where and who maintains to the highest level of maintainence, high performance "anything's" have the chance of busting something more often than a simple Cessna. There's simply many more things to break on a high performance warbird. IMHO

So for an example: A P-51 badly breaks something quickly requiring a bailout at 2000 ft. with a child of 8 or 10 in the back seat in a parachute. Canopy is jenisoned. Wind is rushing in all over with crazy noise going on. Mustang is starting to dive. what do you think the chances of an 8 to 10 year old getting out, without hitting something and breaking an arm or leg, figuring out what is happening and able to open a chute. very slim I would assume. begs the questions where do you draw the line with kids and warbirds? High performance? (P-51's etc.) No under a certain age? T6's etc. possibly if not required to wear a chute?

I guess again for me if a small child of a certain age group (8 to 10 or younger) needs to wear a parachute in any airplane to begin with, that child needs to simply wait a few more years to grow up to be able to understand emergency egress issues and more importantly be able to perform such a task if God forbid anything terrible happened. I would have no problem telling a young child that he/she needs to wait a few more years until I would feel safe taking him/her up in my P-51.

QUOTE: "It's when some unforseen mechanical issue happens that requires an egress, which in high performance warbirds could happen more so than with a C172, no matter what, where and who maintains to the highest level of maintainence, high performance "anything's" have the chance of busting something more often than a simple Cessna. There's simply many more things to break on a high performance warbird."

What facts do you use to base this opinion on?

The way I see it (I see airplanes up close and personal everyday) is that any warbird (that was designed as such, not adapted from a civvie a/c) is built to not just a higher standard, but a higher degree of reliability and redundancy. I'd rather take a chance in a P-51 built to endure the stress and strain associated with combat over any Chickenhawk, or nearly any other Cessna product for that matter.

The whole statement is absurd.

If it were even remotely factual, then how would you explain Airliners, they are really complex? They are certainly more reliable than any Cessna 172 I have seen / worked on (even brand new ones). If you saw any of the flight school aircraft around here, you would swear off General aviation for ever.

A brand new 2012 Cessna 172 has more Airworthiness Directives against it than a nearly 70 year old P-51 (and Cessna has been building 172's for a lot longer than the production life of a P-51, and they still can't get it right!!!

Edited to add how complex airliners are

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Expert:
Ex: Former.
Spurt: A drip under pressure.

When we flew he always flew rear seat. I knew how to pull the door pin and release the harness and we spent time at the skydive operation learning how to operate the chutes and did the platform jump though at the time I did not do a live jump. He would not let me fly in the rear seat when we were doing aerobatics because he thought it would be too difficult for me to get out. He joked I would get out and he would just ride her in. Honestly I wonder how egress from the rear seat while in an uncontrolled spin would be.

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Flying Piper L4-J 45-55209

OK relax, I simply mean't that more "high performance' parts used at "high performance" could (see "could" in my original post, and IMHO) have a higher chance of fail than parts on a C172. Just my opinion which you have assured is most likely wrong. Could care less about that really. You obviously know more about high performance mechanics than I do. I'm not going to get into a pissing match with anyone here about mechanics. My post was more pointed toward the tail end of my post. Sorry for the ruffled feathers.

And so you know I don't have any facts to base my opinion on. It was just a humble opinion which wasn't mean't to piss anyone off.

That's the kind of thing I was wondering about. Thanks.

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"There are old pilots and bold pilots but few old, bold pilots."

I had some other thoughts from when I worked in EMS. I was a Pediatric Advanced Life Support Instructor and spent a lot of extra time in ER's and clinics working with kids to build my skills. So I have worked a lot with kids in stressful situations- trauma, severe illness, etc. Kids who were constantly exposed to adults and adult situations, such as those who were chronically ill, usually developed pretty good problem solving skills and were attuned to their environment and what went on; those were the kids you had to be very up front and direct with. Most other kids who suffered acute trauma (accidents or injuries) pretty much mentally hunkered down and waited for Mommy or whoever they were comfortable with to come and get them out of the situation. When I say kids, I mean mostly the 8-15 year old range. Most kids do not have a sense of their own mortality; assuming they will know that they need to act when placed in mortal danger is a fallacy. I'm willing to grant that there are lots of kids who are together and directed and listen carefully. But that's not the typical kid out there today in the US.

Taylor, I think it's great that your Dad did that for you. I wish I had a Dad like that! But I also doubt highly that if something happened that you had better than an even chance of survival at the age of six. My 8 year old is playing indoor soccer right now. I have been trying to get him to stop the ball before he kicks it. And it is less than 50/50 that he listens when he is told to do it whether it's me, a coach, or an assistant coach. It's too cool to just kick the ball when it comes to you. At the age of 8, I doubt he would listen to me yelling at him to "JUMP!" any more than he listens to me to stop the ball before he kicks it, especially when he is sitting nice and tight in a seat in an aircraft. But I realize that is only my opinion and other experiences may vary. But as I said earlier, I wouldn't put anybody lower than 18, unless a qualified pilot with some more experience, in a hard-to-egress seat in an aircraft and truly expect they had a good chance to make egress in the event of an emergency situation.

My stock instructions will continue to be- "Stay seated and strapped in until the airplane comes to a full stop no matter what happens." So in my book if you're not 18, or not a private pilot with better experience, and don't have some kind of not-specified-yet-needs-to-be-thorough egress training, you are riding with me to the ground or are condemned to knitting a hat for Mr. Henriques...

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REMEMBER THE SERGEANT PILOTS!

My only expereince was with two warbird riders many years ago. Both about 13-14 and they were getting a T-34 ride. One kid was an obvious "no" from the moment he got out of his parents car. "Busy" did not begin to explain this kid. No way was he going to sit in the rear seat of anything without touching, pulling, pushing anything within reach. The pilot said no and we totally backed him up. Good fortune had a flight school and a cessna who, where the kids Dad could ride shotgun with him, was happy to take him for a ride.

The other kid was awesome. He listened, even asked a few good questions and from just watching him for 15-20 minutes you could tell what kind of person he was. The ride went great and I believe he is a commercially rated pilot today (I'd like to think because of that ride).

The point is that based on several factors (pilots good judgement, third party support (no pressure to do the ride), observation of passenger) that the risk factor was reduced to an acceptable level. I do not think that under 10 is a good plan in a situation where rear seat egrees would be tough, but then I am not a pilot of a Mustang, T-6, Corsair etc. Hopefully one day I will have to make this decision for myself!

One last observation - there are many graves attesting to the difficulty of getting out of a large airplane (B-24, B-29, B-17) during an emergency situation by well trained and expereinced crew members. Actually, thinking about it, I know of a situation that ended badly where the pilot did not want to leave a passenger stuck in the belly seat of a plane, in this case a Skyraider.

Tom P.

I didn't have time to read all the responses, but I take my daughter in the back seat of the T-6 fairly often, and she's been in the back seat of a P-51 once, wearing a parachute each time, starting at 8 years old. The parachute in this case works as a padded seat cushion, and she also sits on top of another cushion so she can see out. From her first time in the back of the plane, I explain how it works every time, so that eventually it'll just be second nature for her. But no, there would be no egress for her yet. She's too small and it wouldn't work. So once when she asked me "would you jump and leave me in here?" I flat out said no. And I wouldn't. If my engine fails, I will fly it down to the ground. I don't do anything but go from A to B with her in the plane, just like I do with every other plane, none of which have a parachute anyway, and it's okay to fly kids around in 'normal' planes without jumping options, right? I don't see any issue with putting the parachute on her and getting her used to it, how it works, etc., and knowing ahead of time that, just like in the Aerostar or the Baron or the 172, if something happens, we're both in the plane flying it all the way to the ground...

Is there a legal requirement for passengers to have parachutes when the pilot has a parachute, even if not flying aerobatics?

No.
Chris...