USS Lexington

[the330thbg]

It is always, always the same arguments slogged back and forth when someone brings up what the do or do not like about a museum restoration.

Might as well cut and paste from the previous threads on this.

Last edited by the330thbg on Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[JOMiller]

67 Cougar, you are spot on. Maintainence of the aircraft
is in the loan agreement. And yes, the Lake Birds that
have been loaned out include initial restoration money.
Navy money can't be used to help museums. Yes, they
will reclaim an aircraft. Battleship Park had the SBD-1
when it first came out of L. Mich. Funds were not avail-
able to restore it. Now I believe it is at the Midway museum.
Similar situation with the F4U-7 after Katrina. It's also at
the Midway Museum.

[Sasquatch]

"With the right to criticize comes the duty to suggest".

I suggest you get out your checkbook, write the museum a check, and explain how you'd like to volunteer to research future paint schemes and help them acquire correct colors and markings. Otherwise...it's just so much useless b*tching.

--Tom

[JOMiller]

I don't buy the perpetual liability excuse, if it were a real issue groups like the Legend Flyers (or whatever the group selling 262 replica call themselves) Tri State Aviation, Aero Trader, Vulture's Row and others would not exist.... How can the Navy be more liable for selling an unrestored aircraft than these groups that restore and sell flyers?[/quote]

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion of "perpetual liability".
Aero Trader, Vultures Row, etc are entitled to theirs. I'm telling
you what the navy's opinion is. They're entitled to it and they
are going to act on it.

[hahnej]

Put your money and/or time into it and contribute, and/or thank the folks that created it and allow you to visit it, or shut up. It's that easy.

It amazes me the people that criticize everything, when they have no stake in it, or even a orders-of-magnatude idea the amount of knowledge, time, hard physical work, and money it takes to maintain a nearly 70-year-old artifact in today's world. Much less the money-raising business side of things. And we're talking about static museum displays. Anyone that can operate a warbird in today's world, be it an L4 or a F-4, my hat's off to you and everything you do to let us appreciate your aircraft. Thank you.

Again, the Lexington museum, it's great. My kids loved the big blue whale and remember it. Without that paint job, they probably wouldn't have asked about it and got my 10-minute lesson on what the Skywarrior was and it's purpose. Same thing for the F-14 and the Blue Angel Hornet and the lake SBD and the.... I'm just thankful the planes were there and my children got to learn about them. And yes, I did tell them the paint jobs weren't right. But my son got to touch an F-4A, how cool is that!?

[Warbirdnerd]

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion of "perpetual liability".
Aero Trader, Vultures Row, etc are entitled to theirs. I'm telling
you what the navy's opinion is. They're entitled to it and they
are going to act on it.

This is the same Navy Museum that loaned their 262 to use as a pattern for the flyers and sold an FM-2 when they had a replacement F4F, so I guess they can disreguard their policy when it suits them...

[67Cougar]

Tom - useless bitching? Really? Then what was your post, but useless bitching about my useless bitching?

If I had offered specific suggestions, then folks would jump all over me for doing that, saying I have no business telling them what to do. You seem to be saying that if I am not on the board of directors down there then I am not entitled to an opinion, and have no right to state an opinion. Apparently all I am allowed to do is post pictures and state what a great, wonderful experience it was and how wonderful the aircraft appear. You will notice that I did not tell people to stay away from the Lex, to not visit it out of protest or anything like that.

The public owns those airplanes, even if it is a very indirect way. If I choose to discuss their condition in a forum like this, a forum decidated to former military aircraft, then I see nothing wrong with that at all. Besides, if I hadn't mentioned it and posted the pics, how many people on this board would have any idea of the condition of the aircraft? How many people go to an out of the way place like Corpus Christi to visit a retired aircraft carrier? Heck, I live in Texas (for a looonnnggg time), and that is the first time I've been to Corpus, and then wouldn't have gone except it coincided with a business trip!

hahnej - I am glad your kids enjoyed the visit, and that they showed interest in the aircraft. It would be nice if folks 5, 10, or 15 years down the road got to do the same. They won't, unless the aircraft are taken care of. When a wing falls off that F-4A, or the main mount pierces its way up through the wing, what do you think will happen to it? Scrap. Yes, the big blue whale and the circus clown Cobra look neat to kids and caught their interest. For kids who are a little older, for those who know a little about the aircraft and their history, and to the Vets who flew and maintained them, the reaction (I would guess) is going to be different. It certainly was for me, and I do consider myself knowledgable about military aviation history.

I do not profess to be an 'expert' - but I have been involved with military aviation, the warbird movement, and flight museums for over 30 years. You may not agree with my opinions, but trust me when I say they are not opinions made from ignorance of history or fiscal reality. I also know that the majority of donors to these museums are much more likely to part with their dollars if they see evidence in front of them that their money will be put to good use. I'd suggest to you that the big blue whale isn't going to inspire many donors.

[JOMiller]

Bryan,
I somehow seem unable to communicate a point.
If the Collings Foundation '262 crashes tomorrow and
kills a bunch of folks (heaven forbid) nobody will sue
the navy. They don't own the repros and never did.

I'm not sure I understand the part about the FM-2.
Was that back in the '90s when policy was different and
some birds did find their way into private hands and back
into the air?

[Sasquatch]

Tom - useless bitching? Really? Then what was your post, but useless bitching about my useless bitching?

Ahh, so we DO agree on something; excellent!

And we don't need to make this personal. I just believe a more positive outcome can be achieved by taking positive actions, that's all.

--Tom

[67Cougar]

Roger that!

[JOMiller]

67Cougar wrote.......

*****I agree with you on most of your points. Funding is a critical issue, and most folks, unfortunately, talk big and deliver small. In addition, I am guessing that most of the revenue brought in goes to the operation of the ship - not to restoration of the ship or aircraft. If I was to write them a thousand dollar check, how much of it would go towards the issue I have brought up here? Not much, if any.*****

Legit point.......If you just write a check you have no control over how it is spent.
Staffers have to be paid. We have bills just like you. Grey paint is $41.00 gallon.
Maintence white is $38.00 gallon. Sick Bay green is $40.00 gallon. It takes a LOT
of paint for a 70 year old battleship and LEX is considerably larger than we are.

HOWEVER, museum ethics dictate if you SPECIFY what the donation is for they have
to honor that. Recently, an guy donated $$$ to purchase and outfit a mannequin as a 101st Airborne trooper from Market Garden. When we get done with this, he will get a call, asking would he like the balance back if there is one. Now I can tell you what the answer will be, but he will get the call. I'm not going to tell you every museum does this every time, but I assure you Battleship Park does.

If you discuss with the person you give the check to what you want and write it on
the check, it will happen. Write "aircraft maintence" or "paint the ship" and that's where it will go.

[Warbirdnerd]

Owen, the issue could totally be on this end...
FM-2 Bu 88690 was sold off in the early 90s after the Lake Michigan recoveries, flew for a few years and a few owners and is once again groundbound in the MOF in Seatle.
FM-2 16161 was sold/traded (anyone know what the deal was?) to David Tallichet around 2004. FWIW MARC registered it with the FAA as N4224W, but it is once again groundbound at Pima.
Their perpetual liabilty concerns were smoothed over when they get a restoration, aircraft in trade, or cash back.. What changed that?
During this same period time the NAVY was spending lots of tax payer dollars going after guys like Mike Rawson and Lex Cralley and anyone else who dared go after a wreck the Navy had disposed its self of decades earlier. Something they still do today.
My point being is if the NHC/Navy/NMNA made better use of the assets it already controls (Money,aircraft, and recovery rights) they might be able to take better care of the aircraft they have on display and loan to other museums.

[Cherrybomber13]

From Col. Rohr
Bryan-David trade his Brewster SB2A Buccaneer/Bermudas remains for the Wildcat

I can tell you at the CASC if you request your donation be earmarked for a particular aircraft or project, it is.

[mustangdriver]

I'm not sure how it works with the NMNA, but at the NMUSAF the liablity IS an issue. Why you ask? Because they found themselves in court before.

When it comes to complaining, I have mixed feelings. I think if you see a museum doing something way wrong, like a paint scheme, that you should talk with the. In this day in age, dropping an e-mail takes less than a minute. Try and help. Atleast then you know they had the info. People have the right to gripe. Those that love to gripe, keep this in mind. It is alot tougher than it looks. Even on a static gate gaurd aircraft, let alone a museum quality static or flyable restoration. To volunteer to give up your free time to do this is the ultimate way to prove your dedication. I can tell you that working a 40 hour week at your real job, then volunteering 8-12 hours a day on your weekend off to go out and paint an airplane is tough. Then going into work on Monday, turning on the computer, and finding out that someone doesn't like the shade of blue you used, or they don't consider your airplane worthy because, "it's JUST a static aircraft so who cares", makes you feel you wasted your time.

As far as the LEX, to me it looks like they are trying hard. I wish Grissom was trying to do half of what these guys are doing. Are they perfect? No. Is there an answer for the corrossion issue, which will be need to be answered soon? No. But they are trying to save the planes and the ship. Good job gang. They are fighting for them. The hardest thing is watching a museum stop trying. Trust me I have a front row seat.

[oldman]

How are we to donate or volunteer when we don't even live in the area?
Aircraft ARE in poor shape and will sooner or later get scrapped who WOULDN"T B!TCH!
A MUSEUM is a place to PROTECT artifacts. D'OH!

Put your money and/or time into it and contribute, and/or thank the folks that created it and allow you to visit it, or shut up. It's that easy.