Packard built vs RR built Merlin engine differences?

[greatgonzo]

Thus you could have a Packard built Merlin with HAmilton Std made props but both with British Prop Shafts.

This really is interesting.

[agent86]

in those days I'm guessing that Champion plugs like most American products were the best.this is no longer true.many times I have been tuning a V-12 ferrari or other high perf car that was running bad,pulled a plug,saw it was Champion.Replaced them with Japanese built NGK plugs and the problem was fixed.sad,but true

[51fixer]

in those days I'm guessing that Champion plugs like most American products were the best.this is no longer true.many times I have been tuning a V-12 ferrari or other high perf car that was running bad,pulled a plug,saw it was Champion.Replaced them with Japanese built NGK plugs and the problem was fixed.sad,but true

On a Merlin you can use the original Lodge type British Plugs. These are dual fine wire electrodes. I'm unsure or current price but $80-100.
Champion has made various Spark Plugs for use in the Merlin over the past 30 years or more. You have to remake your ignition harnesses as the lead that screws onto the plug is different with an SAE thread. The last ones we used were single fine wire electrode. I'm unsure if it is still being produced as a few years back they weren't. Cost $100 or so a few years ago.
Currently we use Champion Spark Plugs that are a part of a Roush kit for the Merlin. The plugs and new harnesses. The plugs are Champion Car RAcing plugs and cost somewhere in the $7 range. These are pretty much a throw away plug.
We have had great results and do not find a need to use NGK or any other spark plug for our Merlin operation.
Remember there are 24 Spark Plugs per Merlin.

[agent86]

Do they run these Champion plugs on the overstressed Merlins at Reno?

[51fixer]

Do they run these Champion plugs on the overstressed Merlins at Reno?

Car Plugs have been used in Reno Mustangs for many years. Maybe 20+.

[JWL115C]

Not an expert on aircraft engines, but know a little about the Packard-build RR Merlin. Many of you probably know all about this, but just in case. The British Production Commission first approached Henry Ford to build the RR Merlin here as they could not satisfy demands. Ford turned down the invitation because it was considered too complicated for them to build in mass production. Packard was then approached and accepted the invitation. Packard had a long history designing and building aircraft engines (e.g., the Liberty engine from WW-I). Packard built a huge production complex at their plant in Detroit, Mich. in record time (something like 6-weeks) to manufacture the Merlins. One of the stipulations the British put on Packard was that the US engines must be able to be changed in the field without any modifications needing to be made. All the mounting and connections had to match the ones built by Rolls Royce. One of the many problems Packard had to deal with was constructing the engines using Whitworth fasteners. They spent considerable effort getting the machines made to make the fasteners. Whitworth fastener tools are sized not by the bolt head dimension, but by the shaft size. A one-half inch Whitworth was for a bolt one-half inch in diameter. A US wrench to fit a one-half inch bolt was usually three-quarters of an inch. Packard made many improvements to the engine in order to do precision mass production. Packard built over 55,000 RR Merlin engines. Later in the war Ford of England, and Continental also made Merlins. A four engine Lancaster bomber could have been powered by engines from four different manufactures (Rolls Royce, Packard, Ford of England, and Continental). I don't know if this ever happened, but it was possible. A good book on this subject is: Allied Aircraft Engines of World War II by Graham White. Great site, thanks for the opportunity to post.

(o{I}o)

[JDK]

Welcome to WIX and great first post! Thanks!

[51fixer]

Not an expert on aircraft engines, but know a little about the Packard-build RR Merlin. Many of you probably know all about this, but just in case. The British Production Commission first approached Henry Ford to build the RR Merlin here as they could not satisfy demands. Ford turned down the invitation because it was considered too complicated for them to build in mass production. Packard was then approached and accepted the invitation. Packard had a long history designing and building aircraft engines (e.g., the Liberty engine from WW-I). Packard built a huge production complex at their plant in Detroit, Mich. in record time (something like 6-weeks) to manufacture the Merlins. One of the stipulations the British put on Packard was that the US engines must be able to be changed in the field without any modifications needing to be made. All the mounting and connections had to match the ones built by Rolls Royce. One of the many problems Packard had to deal with was constructing the engines using Whitworth fasteners. They spent considerable effort getting the machines made to make the fasteners. Whitworth fastener tools are sized not by the bolt head dimension, but by the shaft size. A one-half inch Whitworth was for a bolt one-half inch in diameter. A US wrench to fit a one-half inch bolt was usually three-quarters of an inch. Packard made many improvements to the engine in order to do precision mass production. Packard built over 55,000 RR Merlin engines. Later in the war Ford of England, and Continental also made Merlins. A four engine Lancaster bomber could have been powered by engines from four different manufactures (Rolls Royce, Packard, Ford of England, and Continental). I don't know if this ever happened, but it was possible. A good book on this subject is: Allied Aircraft Engines of World War II by Graham White. Great site, thanks for the opportunity to post.

(o{I}o)

I have read that Henry really didn't believe that the British could prevail and that influenced his decision on Merlin production. IIRC he was inclined toward being neutral. World events forced a different response and the Ford organization contributed greatly to the Arsenal of Democracy.
With the resources available to a company like Ford its hard to imagine that any production hurdle couldn't have been overcome.
I believe much or at least some of the production machinery that was used to make the Merlin parts, as well as everything else for their war effort, came from America.
If production of parts and even complete engines needed to be outsourced it would also stand that the production machinery needed to make the parts would have been in short supply.
One example of the machinery is a photo I have seen of mounting holes being drilled in a valve cover. It has maybe 50 - 60 holes or so. The machine had many drill bits precisely positioned so that all the holes would be drilled in unison. So all the drill bits spin and move up and down together and these holes will match up to the studs on the head. All machining was done in this fashion. This equipment wasn't only used in making Merlins but was an adaption of technology used on all engines, transmission and the like.
The difficulty with building parts for the Merlin more had to do with creating the tooling for the threads in the hardware and parts. It was difficult but not that difficult as we were called on to provide tooling and machines for the British production even prior to Pearl Harbor.
Ford also sued after the war to recover costs of the buildings and equipment destroyed in France.
There was an effort to build Merlins in France at the beginning of the war. There was problems with building the parts in part to some believing that any advanced tools and machines would be lost. They did produce some engines but from parts provided from the UK.
I'll have to find the book but it is an autobio on the people involved in Merlin development and production.

[JDK]

The following was forwarded to me by another member to post here, so here it is:

The information in this post about Henry Ford "declining" building the Merlin engine is incorrect. It is written in the RR Trust Books that RR took the offer away from Henry Ford as they discovered that he was trying to "modify and improve" the Merlin for his own purposes which included trying to market the engine directly through Ford Motors. One of the things he tried to change was the use of the fork and blade rods, rather Henry tried to develop a version of the engine with side by side automotive style rods. He spent several millions of dollars on this before RR took it away and ultimately awarded the contract to Packard Motor's. If I'm not mistaken, I believe you can find this info in the RR book called "The Merlin in Perspective."

My personal take on this, much like the rest of the topic (as Rich has also already touched on) is that the story is a complex one, and there were often multiple reasons or complex issues over the choices made - afterwards the story gets 'simplified' and with an additional dose of the Not Invented Here syndrome, the abbreviated version suits a national bias' self-image.

Regards,

[ZRX61]

I have read that Henry really didn't believe that the British could prevail and that influenced his decision on Merlin production. IIRC he was inclined toward being neutral. World events forced a different response and the Ford organization contributed greatly to the Arsenal of Democracy.

That's the way I heard it, Henry didn't want to back what he thought would be the losing side & it appears he was a bit of a fan of Adolf in the beginning...

The Ford plant in Germany that made trucks for the Wehrmacht apparently wasn't targeted for bombing, not sure how true that is, but they did supply the Wehrmacht with trucks throughout the war...

CocaCola was another company that profited from both sides, look up the history of Fanta...

[51fixer]

I have read that Henry really didn't believe that the British could prevail and that influenced his decision on Merlin production. IIRC he was inclined toward being neutral. World events forced a different response and the Ford organization contributed greatly to the Arsenal of Democracy.

That's the way I heard it, Henry didn't want to back what he thought would be the losing side & it appears he was a bit of a fan of Adolf in the beginning...

The Ford plant in Germany that made trucks for the Wehrmacht apparently wasn't targeted for bombing, not sure how true that is, but they did supply the Wehrmacht with trucks throughout the war...

CocaCola was another company that profited from both sides, look up the history of Fanta...

I reread the chapter on Ford's decision to not produce the Merlin in the US. Ford of England agreed to produce Merlins in England going back to 1939. When presented drawings Ford had to redraw everything as Tolerances were not close enough for Ford to produce them with the needed ability to interchange from engine to engine. Within the RR production method each engine was basically hand built by skilled labor that could deal with and fit parts together to make an engine. Ford needed to utilize machinery to produce close tolerance parts that less skilled labor could bolt together and have a product that met specs. The added bonus was improved interchangeability of parts from one engine to another along with an increase in output. These drawings were sent to Ford in Detroit and input in planning, production methods, tooling and machinery were sent to England from the USA.
The Ford plant in France was also brought on to produce Merlin engines but never got up to speed and only produced 130ish engines, all from parts provided from England.
To say that Ford didn't build the Merlin in the US because it was too difficult to produce really doesn't stand up.
It was actually announced in newspapers that Ford got the contract but even though Edsel was company President, Henry wouldn't allow it to happen. From what I read he actually had some form of a fit about it.
Factored into this was an former employee who went onto become President of GM and then was appointed head of the Gov War Production Council. He was the one who requested that Ford build the engine and made the announcement to the newspapers. Also Henry had some problem with how the request came via RR and not the British Gov IIRC.
I also understand that Ford wished to build aircraft but the War Production Board wanted them to produce Aircraft Engines at that time.

[Jack Frost]

IIRC and it's been at least 30 years now, but I seem to remember that in the Wartime Journals of Charles A. Lindburgh he wrote about the lack of interchangability of B-24 sections built by Ford with B-24s sections built by other manufacturers. There were also problems with interchanging sections among B-24s built by Ford which turned up when major battle damage repairs were attempted in the field using components from "War Wearies". Later on the problem was solved by holding the component production to closer tolerances.

[The Inspector]

Well, one of the most loved and admired pre war American car designs was the 39/40 FORD DeLUXE which is also the world standard for crap for fit and finish and gap control. A properly restored '40 Coupe should look like it was just nosed into a brick wall.
And, didn't Mr. McNamara get a certain part of his upper anatomy in a very serious wringer over FORDS building of B-29 center sections and their 'creativity'?

[ZRX61]

A properly restored '40 Coupe should look like it was just nosed into a brick wall.

The only one I've ever worked on had the body jacked up & a NASCAR chassis & running gear etc slid underneath it....Not sure who was more surprised, the people who drove it or the people it passed...