Fortress downing 23 Zeroes, October 1942??

whistlingdeath77 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:08 pm

good info

JDK · **Posted:** Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:54 am

Dave Homewood wrote:

OK, just to add to the discussion, on the 3rd of November 1942, this airman wrote in his diary whilst he was based at Pallikulo ("Buttons"), Espiritu Santo, the following note:

"Squadron of Mustangs (Fighters) arrived very similar to Air Cobras."

Which unit was flying Mustangs in the Pacific that early in the war? And what mark of P-51 were they? Or was there another type that was also known as Mustang? Or was he mistaken in his identification of the aircraft?

Hi Dave,
This one's intrigued me. As has been stated, there were no Mustangs - so it's definitely a rumour. But why, how and what the reality might've been is tricky.

Some of the loose threads so far - the name 'Mustang' was allocated by the British for the aircraft - it was the Air Ministry's name, which was subsequently adopted by the US. No other type of 'Mustang' around likely to cause confusion. The name was common - not secret - by 1942.

'Tonys' were certainly mistaken for 109s in reports.

Also we mustn't fall into the hindsight trap; the Mustang was 'just another' new US type for the RAF, and hadn't entered USAAF service. I'm not expert enough to say what the view of the type was in late 1942, but a look at Flight International's archive for 'Mustang' in 1940-42 gives a number of early reports on the type.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/ ... ch=Mustang
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/ ... ch=Mustang
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/ ... ch=Mustang

Much was promised in public, but what the air forces knew of the Allison Mustang's actual performance, and how much would filter to an Erk in the Pacific...

Another aspect of negative evidence was the way that the arrival of the other Allied "wonder 'plane" (acknowledging the Mustang wasn't a "wonder 'plane" then) into the Pacific theatre was handled. Spitfires were coded as 'Capstans' (after the cigarette brand) and were treated in reality as a highly secret deployment until their use was revealed.

Almost certainly it's a piece of straightforward wartime rumour, most of which has since been deleted / forgotten / expunged from the accounts of the time, and we thus tend to forget.

gemmer wrote:

...Aside from one squadron sent from England to Darwin in 1943 with Spitfires, ...

There may be some issue with translation here - there was an RAF Wing of three Spitfire Squadrons, two of which were RAAF one of which was RAF. So yes, it's correct to say one RAF Spitfire squadron, but that was only one part of the unit.

http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/air_raids/darwin.asp

HTH!

Dave Homewood · **Posted:** Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:54 am

Thanks James and everyone else for input so far. I don't think his note in the diary is one of jubilation that the so-called Mustangs had arrived, just a note that something different was on the airfield. He noted on several other days the arrival of several other types too. It was just a matter of 'This happened today'. He had probably seen a bit of publicity about the Mustang and somehow mistook something else for Mustangs when it arrived there. The mystery is what?

He had been based at Whenuapai before heading to Santo so he'd surely have known what a P-40 looked like, as they were based there and well known in NZ. He knew it was not a P-39. He mentioned Grumman fighters coming and going (I assue Wildcats). So he knew them too. What other inline engine types did the US forces have - I cannot think.

I'll add too that the diary is very detailed about day to day happeneings and though a few comments are based purely on rumour, almost all that I have so far read and checked out has been accurate. The detail in his diary, if he'd been caught with it, would probably have seen him inprisoned. It was illegal to do so. He wrote about all the food he was swiping from the mess and other places too, and some derogatory things about the officers and the RNZAF's poor organisation skills. Also about workmates having mental breakdowns and getting ill, and about befriending US sailors and about how his Corporal had rheemed him out for not working hard enough, and about the shelling and bombing and various disasters, etc. It's a great insight to daily life on the squadron.

Does anyone know what that Japanese carrier was that threatened Santo on the 16th of October please?

JDK · **Posted:** Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:01 pm

Dave Homewood wrote:

Thanks James and everyone else for input so far. I don't think his note in the diary is one of jubilation that the so-called Mustangs had arrived, just a note that something different was on the airfield.

Hi Dave, you'll note that's one of my points above - the Mustang wasn't 'something special' then.

Secondly, it was essentially a British aircraft then, built by America for the RAF. Obviously without seeing the reference, I can't be sure if it's explicit that they're a mystery US type or a mystery British / Commonwealth type, but without any other guidance, it'd probably be British.

The rest's fascinating, and a rare insight, given it's explicit and contemporary. By the way, 'rheemed' should be 'reamed' ~ slang use of a precision engineering boring-out of a tube.

Cheers

JDK · **Posted:** Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:22 pm

Dave Homewood wrote:

Does anyone know what that Japanese carrier was that threatened Santo on the 16th of October please?

I'm no expert, but I think you get a choice of three for the forthcoming Battle of Santa Cruz, with the second version of the Japanese Navy's First Carrier Division, comprising the IJN Shōkaku, Zuikaku, and Zuihō.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_ ... uz_Islands

Jack Cook · **Posted:** Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:53 pm

Dave Homewood · **Posted:** Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:57 pm

That's an impressive score on that B-17 Jack. Are the love hearts denoting how many women the pilot had?

Dave Homewood · **Posted:** Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:10 pm

JDK wrote:

Dave Homewood wrote:

Thanks James and everyone else for input so far. I don't think his note in the diary is one of jubilation that the so-called Mustangs had arrived, just a note that something different was on the airfield.

Hi Dave, you'll note that's one of my points above - the Mustang wasn't 'something special' then.

Indeed I got that point, in general they were nothing special, but as this was probably the first time Harold had seen them, and they were new to Santo during the kiwis' stay there, it was at least 'of note' enough to put into the diary. I'm certain as everyone here is that what he saw was not Mustangs.

Quote:

Obviously without seeing the reference, I can't be sure if it's explicit that they're a mystery US type or a mystery British / Commonwealth type, but without any other guidance, it'd probably be British.

The reference is exactly as I typed it earlier in the thread. Nothing more than that I'm afraid.

Quote:

The rest's fascinating, and a rare insight, given it's explicit and contemporary.

It is indeed a fascinating account, as it fills in a lot of gaps not in the official records, and really captures the mood within the squadron on a more personal level.

Quote:

By the way, 'rheemed' should be 'reamed' ~ slang use of a precision engineering boring-out of a tube.

Thanks for the correction, I should have known that too. Thanks also for the tip on the carriers.

hang the expense · **Posted:** Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:59 pm

whistlingdeathcorsairs wrote:

Malo83 wrote:

Maybe it was this one :lol:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

where did you get that photo? i haven't seen that before in color. Too bad that b-17 was too heavy to keep up with the rest of the formation. I good idea tho

Its a model of a YB-40 and a good job at that

airnutz · **Posted:** Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:02 am

Dave Homewood wrote:

Does anyone know what that Japanese carrier was that threatened Santo on the 16th of October please?

Shokaku and Zuikaku were in the neighborhood at the time...probably laying off in support of Guadalcanal .
15 October, elements of their force sank the USS Meredith 400 miles from Espiritu Santo at San Cristobal in the southernmost Solomons.

Dave Homewood · **Posted:** Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:30 am

Thanks Airnutz.

I have been reading and analyzing further into the diary. Though so much of it is accurate when compared with other records there are also some glaringly odd entries, and I am convinced now that Santo had an amazing rumour mill at work.

An example from earlier was when the USS President Coolidge sank entering the port, hitting mines that no-one told them were there. Harold wrote that the death toll was up around 500. Wikipedia says two people died.

He wrote on the 28th of November 1942, "53 got a sub today good work but overshadowed by the news of another of our kites shot down, more news later about the crew." If he is referring to RNZAF Hudsons, none seem to have sunk any subs at that time, and none were shot down. It's possible he's referring to US aircraft, maybe 53 was a squadron number and not Hudson NZ2053. Not sure.

He later wrote on the 6th of December 1942 that "P/O Burgess got sub. Dropped stick of bombs full length of her." However I have a photographic copy of P/O Ian Burgess's flying logbook and there's no mention of him attacking a submarine at all in that period. As Burgess was by then at Cactus and Harold still at Buttons it seems there was some misconstrued message there as news filtered back to the boys at Santo. In reality it was Ian Page who flew the Hudson that attacked the submarine, on the 2nd of December 1942, and he was credited with a 'probably damaged' for it.

Now for the latest discovery, entered on the 7th of Decemebr 1942, he wrote, "Capt. Jacobs now known to be shot down over New Georgia. 34 Zeros attacked her. She shot down 23 before they got her. A spotter there notified a Cat." So make of that what you will.

Harold got friendly with an air gunner from the USAAF called Dick Huber and mentions him a lot. I thought people here might be interested that Dick was a gunner aboard a B-17 called 'Tokio Taxi' and that Dick managed to get Harold aboard for one long 12 hour photo mission all around the Solomons. I guess this is the same aircraft later shot down and is now featured on Pacific Wrecks, although Dick is not listed as crew at the time of the crash.

Jollygreenslugg · **Posted:** Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:09 pm

Hey Jack,

Any details on the Fort? That's a most impressive tally.

Cheers,
Matt

gemmer · **Joined:** Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:54 am **Posts:** 314

I think a step back is in order, to consider the time and circumstances that produced the kill claims for gunnners during the period in question as well other aerial accomplishements during that same period. It was a time when things were not going all that well for us in the Pacific and propaganda was the rule of the day. Colin Kelly sank a battleship, the Japanese invasion was repulsed at Lingayen, B-17s sank carriers at Midway. Kill markings on bombers looked great but were greatly exaggerated. The idea that each gunner on the Suzy Q had credit for 10 kills was a sham created by whoever provided the information to the author of the Life article. White's book about the Swoose, Queen's Die Proudly, states that Japanese pilots flying missions to Java were dressed like natives so they could blend in if they were shot down. And, the reason we eliminated the red center to the aircraft insignia was because the Japanese paintd stars around their insignia to fool the Allies. All made up.

With regard to the "Mustang" question, I think there is a clue in the statement that the "Mustangs" looked very similar to "Air Cobras". What other liquid cooled engine fighter looked very similar to a "Air Cobra", given its tricycle landing gear? I can see someone finding a similarity between a P-40 and an Allison P-51, but not a P-39. I think that what the author saw were indeed P-39s in O.D. paint with short barrel cannons as opposed to the P-400s initially on Santo before moving up to Guadalcanal, They had RAF paint schemes and long barrel 20 mm cannon, with pre war insignia that would set them apart. Factor in the rumor mill that "Mustangs" were coming and you have a scenario that fits

Just food for thought.

Duane

67N20 · **Posted:** Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:53 pm

I'm getting "Fortress Against the Sun" back from the library to see what I can find. It is the most detailed book of B17s in the Pacific I've read. It even has a chart that lists each B17 in the Pacific theater and what happened to it-although not all correct as for "Swamp Ghost" is says: "Crash landed in Agaiambo Swamp, New Guinea, 23 March 1942. Pilot 1st Lt. Frederick C. Eaton, Jr. Returned to US. Restored, (Oldest E in world.)"

tom d. friedman · **Posted:** Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:29 pm

maybe the 17 crew was on that alcohol / caffeine drink 4 loco or el loco, forgot the name. the plane with the cool score board......... i'd love to read that crew's log book!!

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Fortress downing 23 Zeroes, October 1942??

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