Turretless B-25 Mitchells??

[The Inspector]

Just a guess, but wouldn't the former designation F-10 have been changed after the war to RB for recon /bomber like the RB-45's were?

[airnutz]

Any idea as to the serial number of the Russian Bomber?

That question has come and gone a few times here over the years regarding the Monino B-25.
IIRC, DaveM2 had some friends look for it, but the data plate was missing? I guess the next
step would be some dissassembly in order see if the construction number stencils have
survived on parts like the wing roots and outer panels, etc.?

[gary1954]

Indeed, that is a very nice factory shot! Just a bit of conjecture, I would imagine that a lot of the post-military use 25's lost their life raft/compartments when they were stripped out for civilian use. Seen as a waste of space and a head knocker. Any existing birds out there that show evidence of less than factory quality patch job in that area? Just thinking

I thought the same thing but according to the Registry the NMUSAF's B-25 never had a post-military career. It sat at DMAFB until 1950, so no civilian conversion took place. Although I did see it noted on JB's website that this Mitchell was converted to a RB-25D while in service.

Any guesses as to what a RB-25D is, and what all is involved in this conversion?

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

R is Reconnaissance ( did become F-10)

[aerovin]

Indeed, that is a very nice factory shot! Just a bit of conjecture, I would imagine that a lot of the post-military use 25's lost their life raft/compartments when they were stripped out for civilian use. Seen as a waste of space and a head knocker. Any existing birds out there that show evidence of less than factory quality patch job in that area? Just thinking

I thought the same thing but according to the Registry the NMUSAF's B-25 never had a post-military career. It sat at DMAFB until 1950, so no civilian conversion took place. Although I did see it noted on JB's website that this Mitchell was converted to a RB-25D while in service.

Any guesses as to what a RB-25D is, and what all is involved in this conversion?

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

R is Reconnaissance ( did become F-10)

More likely "R" for restricted....not suitable for combat. Many early series aircraft were so designated in 1942 and later, as in RB-17D as the Swoose became. The "R" prefix was used as such from 1942 to 1947. The "R" prefix for reconaissance was assigned in 1947 with the new USAF.

Most likely (not confirmed), the RB-25D designation for this airplane denoted non-combat use, i.e. stateside transport or squadron hack.

[gary1954]

RB-25D 43-3374 a.k.a. 40-2344

7 November 1957, Colonel Jack A. Simms, USAF of the Office of Legislative Liaison, was in charge of the annual reunion of the Doolittle Raiders that was being held in 1958 in Las Vegas, Nevada on 18 April 1958.
He came up with the idea of acquiring one of the many B-25s that were being phased out of the Air Force, and having North American “modify it” to represent the lead aircraft flown by General Doolittle on the Tokyo Raid, and present the aircraft to the Air Force Museum.
He ran the idea by General Doolittle and Doolittle agreed with Colonel Simms on the project, Simms had already talked to the people at North American, and knew he could get a B-25 for the project.

So, Simms sent a letter to Colonel John F. Wadman, the Director of the Air Force Museum at Wright – Patterson and invited him to join him (Simms), Doolittle, and the Tokyo Raiders in Vegas, where he and General Doolittle would present the Mitchell to the Air Force Museum.
Doolittle said that he would fly the B-25 to Los Vegas, and Simms suggested that maybe he and Wadman could fly in onboard the B-25 as well. Simms was also concerned that North American might have some difficulty in locating a top turret, and inquired if the Museum had one.

30 December 1957, Colonel George R. Bickell, USAF, Chief of Operations Programs Division, Director of Operations fired off a Memorandum to the Chief, Aircraft Division, Directorate of Maintenance Engineering. The subject: Request for RB-25D for Air Museum.

Colonel Bickell said that a requirement existed for a B-25 to be placed in the Air Force Museum, and must, as closely as possible, depict one of the B-25s used on the Tokyo Raid.
He specified that RB-25D 43-3374 then in storage at Davis Monthan “most closely fills this requirement”.

Bickell requested that the subject B-25 be prepared for a one time flight to for the transfer to the Air Force Museum, and that Air Force Museum funds would be applied toward the cost of the removal from storage and preparation for the one time flight to the North American Aircraft Corporation, and that the modification would be at no expense to the government.
He also mentioned in his Memorandum, that the formal presentation of the B-25 to the Museum would be made by General Doolittle on 18 April 1958 in Los Vegas.

Things happen quickly when there are a couple of Colonels and a General involved, as on 31 December 1957, Lieutenant Colonel S.W. Stewart, whom I believe was assigned to Headquarters, USAF, sent a movement order through Colonel R. R. Barden, USAF, who was then the Acting Director, Maintenance-Engineering, Deputy Chief of Staff, Materials, advising him that the decision had been made to place a B-25 in the Museum at Wright-Patterson, and that RB-25D 43-3374 was to be prepared for a one time flight for delivery to the North American Inglewood Facility as soon as possible, but not later than 1 February 1958.
He also specified that “Every effort will be made to insure above delivery date is met”.

RB-25D (F-10) 43-3374 at North American Aviation, Inglewood, CA in 1958
Photo Earl Blount North American Rockwell

Here is a list of stuff that was to go on the RB-25D to make it look like a B Model,












I wonder where all the extra parts went.


Flight to the Tokyo Raiders Reunion in Los Vegas
Photo Earl Blount North American Rockwell
Information via Mr. Earl Blount of North American Rockwell, One of the documents pertaining to 43-3374, indicated that it cost the USAF Museum 96,024.oo Dollars to “modify” 3374 to resemble 40-2344.

[aerovin]

I stand corrected...it was obviously an F-10 that became an RB-25D after 1947 with the new designation system. Does anyone have the operational record of the airplane? Unusual for an early B-25 to survive into the postwar USAF which is why, no doubt, it was the candidate for the B-25B conversion.

[rwdfresno]

Gary an excellent post. Not nearly as neat as your info but a little bit to add on this. Here are some pictures and an article. Notably in these pictures are Virgil Thompson. He worked for NAA for many years with his father and was involved with the B-25 program from the beginning including, going over seas to help Pappy Gunn develop the C-D strafers and G models the conversion of the F-10D to B-25B. Included is a picture of him the right seat. I have numerous other pictures somewhere but not handy at the moment.

Ryan

[Ken]

I was trying to remember if the Clayton stacks were removed from the RB-25D. Many photos circulated of it flying and arriving with the stacks installed and that's probably why I thought they were still there. Was looking for older display photos since nowadays, it's displayed with engine covers and you can't tell regardless.

... BTW, it'd take some doing, but someone really ought to break this thread up under different titles, particularly to save the Doolittle replica information for future searches.

Reference Mike George's comments this week, WIX also has the ability to torque me off at times - but it's a post like this that keeps me scanning thread titles. Great info!

Ken

[RyanShort1]

I was trying to remember if the Clayton stacks were removed from the RB-25D - nowadays, it's displayed with engine covers, so you can't tell regardless.

BTW, it'd take some doing, but someone really ought to break this thread up under different titles, particularly to save the Doolittle replica information for future searches.

Reference Mike George's comments this week, WIX also has the ability to torque me off at times - but it's a post like this that keeps me scanning thread titles. Great info!

Ken

Good point about possibly splitting the thread.
Another point - apparently the F-10 used actually served in South America during WWII and the pilot was at the San Antonio Doolittle Raiders' Reunion two years ago with a newspaper article and some more stuff. It was pretty neat.

Ryan

[rwdfresno]

The Doolittle replica B-25 may actually be a pretty neat thing to document on the aerovintage website. Scott has a lot of interesting reading on that page.

Ryan

[Steve Nelson]

I'm surprised to see that they originally planned to reconfigure the exhausts to the earlier single-stack setup. AFAIK this was never done. The aircraft has had the individual stacks as long is she's been on display in the museum..you can still see the lumps under the canvas engine covers in the current display. Interestingly, the museum installed a brand-new crystal-clear turret dome on the aircraft back in the '90s, which is now also under a canvas cover.

SN

[Shay]

Wow!! Great pictures, anymore of "3374" prior to retrofit?? Or any other Mitchells from this time. The two-tone paint scheme is very attractive on a B-25 I think. While doing last minute shopping at the NMUSAF today I noticed the patches for the waist gunner windows, which i had never noticed before seeing the pictures in this thread.

Why would "3374" have been modified with a tail gunner position and Waist gunner's positions if this was a Foto bird?

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

[Steve Nelson]

at the NMUSAF today I noticed the patches for the waist gunner windows

I've never noticed the "skinned over" windows either. Here's a pic I took some years ago of the inside of the waist section..I'm assuming the panel marked "Emergency Exit" is one of the waist gun window patches. The plexi had been removed from one of the small side windows, so I used the opportunity to get a pic. Of course, this was in the pre-digital days, so I had to just guess on the focus and exposure, and wait until the film was developed to see if I'd gotten anything.

SN