Warbird Information Exchange

Roush is making new Merlin guides & valves. Hopefully his metalurgy will be a fix for that.
VL

Vlado, I would like to know more information and detail about this. What specifically are the engine rebuilders saying about this? Some questions:

1) So basically, it sounds like virtually ANY kind of petroleum-based gas will work in warbird engines?

2) Would any modifications have to be accomplished or would it just be minor tuning and adjustments without "physical mods"?

3) What impact would that have on the reliability and horsepower output on the engines?

4) Would it affect the TBO of these engines?

Lots of questions, I know, but I'm greatly interested in what you have to say! Thanks in advance.

What about methanol ?

Great for supercharged engines but obviously the flow rates would reduce endurance

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Aussie expat lost in Indonesia

Don't worry about it. There will always be an alternative. The Germans at the end of ww2 were using synthetic fuels made from coal. You've got to remember what the EPA is doing isn't about reasonable regulation at all. It's politically charged, and some day it will go away.

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"No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!" R.R.

Welcome to the USSA! One Nanny State Under the Messiah, Indivisible with Tyranny, Higher Taxes, Socialism, Radical Environmentalism and a Loss of Income for all. Boy I'm proud to be a part of the USSA, what can I do to raise taxes, oh boy oh boy!

There has always (in the last decade or two, at least) been healthy debate about lead in aero fuels.

Even the educated ones -- for instance, Doug Rozendaal is a petroleum guy by career, and there are several others -- can't really agree what the impact of unleaded aero fuel is/will be.

The octane question is also one people can't really agree on totally.

So, the eventual loss of 100LL probably won't be the death knell for the piston warbird movement.

Perhaps so, but I still would love to hear some of the "theories" about what the potential impact might be. I respect Vlado's opinions here, so I would love to hear about what he thinks on my questions I posed earlier.

I would also love to hear "Sparrow"'s view on this since he is a major engine rebuilder. I don't know if he even checks in here any more since I haven't seen him post in a looooong time.

TEL,
Used mostly as an anti detonate. Cylinder head temps are much lower when using it than modern unleaded gasoline.

Trivia, when TEL was used years back, cancer was lower, there was less diease, some of use that grew up with our noses in exhaust back then are doing just fine.
TEL didn't hurt a thing then any more than leaded paint on our Tonka toys did.

Warbird1 asked:
Vlado, I would like to know more information and detail about this. What specifically are the engine rebuilders saying about this? Some questions:

1) So basically, it sounds like virtually ANY kind of petroleum-based gas will work in warbird engines?

2) Would any modifications have to be accomplished or would it just be minor tuning and adjustments without "physical mods"?

3) What impact would that have on the reliability and horsepower output on the engines?

4) Would it affect the TBO of these engines?

Lots of questions, I know, but I'm greatly interested in what you have to say! Thanks in advance.



I had better answer these questions ASAP, before I forget what I heard at the Fighter forum @ OSH.

1- Yes, only petroleum based fuels are considered. No discussion on methanol or ethanol fuels.
2- No physical changes to the motors, only change in spark timing and enrich the carb fuel schedule.
3 & 4- Likely a reduction of horsepower because of the reduction of power output with a reduction of manifold pressures - due to keeping the induction temperatures within operating limits. Obviously the reduction of power oput may increase reliability and TBO because of lower stresses on the mechanical components. (FYI: Running the Merlin at 55" power setting on takeoff has a higher power to weight ratio in today's lighter civilian/sport Mustang than running the heavier combat stock Mustang at 61".)

The above is a combination of forum comments from Jack Roush and Mike Nixon. They both are very aware of the uncertainty of fuel availability, but both seem fairly confident that the operation of these big motors can continue. (BTW: NIxon bought the radial engine overhaul shop Aircraft Cylinder and Turbine and had the whole operation moved to Tehachapi.)
Hope this is correct and clear.........from what I recall at the forum on Thursday.
VL

[quote="engguy"]TEL,
Used mostly as an anti detonate. Cylinder head temps are much lower when using it than modern unleaded gasoline.

Trivia, when TEL was used years back, cancer was lower, there was less diease, some of use that grew up with our noses in exhaust back then are doing just fine.
TEL didn't hurt a thing then any more than leaded paint on our Tonka toys did.[/quote]

I'll have to disagree here.

In its concentrated form, TEL is the closest thing to pure poison that I've ever had to deal with in 24 years in the chemical industry. Fortunately, it was already on the way out when I started.

We used to have a set of tech briefs from the Ethyl Company (manufacturer of TEL) that included handling instructions. These were intensely detailed instructions about how to handle this material (example -- If you spill TEL on an unsealed concrete floor, break up the floor and incinerate the remains!). Keep in mind that these instructions dated from the 1960s, when it was unusual for chemicals of any kind to come with such detailed and scary-sounding instructions (this was long before the advent of material safety data sheets). Nowadays, I would imagine that handling instructions for TEL are probably almost as involved as those for plutonium.

The whole problem with lead is ingestion. As long as it stays outside the body, it's not an issue. But if it does get ingested, it's a cumulative poison -- it stays in the body, and has particularly nasty effects on intelligence in children. Having done some work with TEL, I think we're all far better off without it.

That said, I hope that a solution can be found that allows the aircraft we all love to continue flying with non-leaded fuels.

So just how dangerous is it, say, to someone working with it on a regular basis in a fueling capacity?

Ryan

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Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

Thanks Vlado, that information was most interesting!

Xylol fumes are dabgerous and should not be inhalated.

Regards

Willy

Another problem that we may face is the ethanol additives to unleaded fuels. My experience with pump gas in my motocross bikes is that the ethanol component will destroy anything rubber, such as the seals, and it spread this nasty residue throughout the carb. I tried pump gas a few times (I usually run avgas in my bikes) but when the fuel sat in the carb for a bit, it was a mess. I had to redo the carbs and the rubber seals were shot. This occurred after about two weeks of sitting and it's been a problem with others, too.

It does not appear to be an issue with the fuel injection systems and I know Greg Poe runs ethanol in his plane. I'm thinking mostly of the seals at the boost pump, the material of the self-sealing fuel tanks, etc.

I do get it that my merlin carb is different than that on my elsinore , but it does raise a question regarding the effect these alternative fuels will have on our fuel systems. Based on these experiences unless Roush or Nixon (and of course Rich ....) said it was okay I would be very reticent to run anything "new."

Im on the inside looking out.....

_________________
Rauhbatz
Commemorative Air Force
CAF Ohio Wing/Airbase Georgia Member
PT-19/26, T-34 CAF Pilot


Favorite quote from Wind, Sand & Stars - A. St. Exupuery "friends are like trees...when they are gone we miss their shade"

Another problem that we may face is the ethanol additives to unleaded fuels. My experience with pump gas in my motocross bikes is that the ethanol component will destroy anything rubber, such as the seals, and it spread this nasty residue throughout the carb. I tried pump gas a few times (I usually run avgas in my bikes) but when the fuel sat in the carb for a bit, it was a mess. I had to redo the carbs and the rubber seals were shot. This occurred after about two weeks of sitting and it's been a problem with others, too.

It does not appear to be an issue with the fuel injection systems and I know Greg Poe runs ethanol in his plane. I'm thinking mostly of the seals at the boost pump, the material of the self-sealing fuel tanks, etc.

I do get it that my merlin carb is different than that on my elsinore , but it does raise a question regarding the effect these alternative fuels will have on our fuel systems. Based on these experiences unless Roush or Nixon (and of course Rich ....) said it was okay I would be very reticent to run anything "new."

Jim,

There was more than one occasion in my racing past that I found myself out in the toolies somewhere, out of gas in my tow vehicle. A simple change of the carb jets (double the size) and drain some methanol from my race car, and off I'd go to town. Now it didn't run all that great without more mods but it got me in to get gas.

You are correct in that the methanol would eat any rubber that was not neoprene. Fuel lines, jet seats, etc. if left too long. Also any aluminum that was not annodized. If however, all was correct, as in the fuel systems of the race cars, all was good. The biggest issue I'd see going methanol for aviation fuel is the fact that it takes twice the volume of fuel to produce the same power.

Once qualifying was done at the Speedway with 120" of boost at over 1000HP from 165 cu in if you made all four laps. So the power is certainly there but we never ran engines much more than 700 race miles between overhauls so the durability would sure be a factor. We also ran Castor oil as an addative for some lube properties (also smelled great) but again, for aviaition purposes, I don't think this is the answer.

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