The Warbird Ride Market in Today's Economy

richkolasa · **Posted:** Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:33 am

From what I'm told, the SBD sold 2 or 3 rides at New Garden yesterday, at $595 for 20 minutes (one ride may have been the pricier 40 minute, not sure). I'd have paid $400, but $595 is too much for me there.

Rich

bomberflight · **Posted:** Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:02 am

Spooky, I can save you time each month :idea:

I spend time ( roughly 8 hours per month ) going through all the bomber websites and collate the data for my site by State .......

http://bomberflight.info/ride_info.htm

Provided "their" site is up to date and the airplane(s) are serviceable I try to provide a "heads up" service to all potential bomber riders across the US & Canada.

At this time of year I average approx 500 hits per week.

Last year I finally met a fellow rider who uses my site to plan his rides ( it seems to work folks ! )

spookythecat · **Posted:** Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:07 pm

bomberflight wrote:

Spooky, I can save you time each month :idea:

I spend time ( roughly 8 hours per month ) going through all the bomber websites and collate the data for my site by State .......

http://bomberflight.info/ride_info.htm

Provided "their" site is up to date and the airplane(s) are serviceable I try to provide a "heads up" service to all potential bomber riders across the US & Canada.

At this time of year I average approx 500 hits per week.

Last year I finally met a fellow rider who uses my site to plan his rides ( it seems to work folks ! )

Good deal!

It's been added to my favorites.

warbird1 · **Joined:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:25 pm **Posts:** 2760

Ryan Keough wrote:

So in other words, it's tightly regulated... and not necessarily easy to apply and be granted an exemption. Exemptions do have time limits and are renewed on a regular schedule (I believe every two years).

Has there ever been an exemption that was denied to a flying organization where they had to cease the "flight experience" program?

Knowing that there are radical FSDO's out there who don't necessarily follow all the rules to it's intent, or one's who have their own agendas, is there any history of "radical" FSDO's denying or trying to shoot down exemptions in the scenario above regarding rides in experimental classed warbirds?

TonyM · **Posted:** Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:08 pm

Ryan Keough wrote:

Hello everyone,

Are there any C-47s that are doing any business with rides these days?

Ryan,

The CAF Great Lakes Wing C-47B "The Black Sparrow" flew several passenger flights yesterday out of Lansing, IL (IGQ).
We drop paratroopers too.

Tony

spookythecat · **Posted:** Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:57 pm

At $25 per seat I can imagine "Southern Cross" has to be doing well. If she were to come out here i'd probably go a few times!

http://www.douglasc47.org/Schedule.html

Rauhbatz · **Posted:** Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:23 pm

Greetings fellow Wixer's

Regrets that over the years the ride price for the SBD (as well as other a/c) have risen over the years along with just about everything else associated with warbird operations; I recollect in my first long x-cntry in the SBD not too long ago when we bought 100LL for 1.99 gallon.

BTW, the 20 min is wheels up to landing...pure flying time. :spit2

I did have an interesting experience a few years back at a small show in NE Ohio. We landed in a warbird and there were 5 FAA inspectors on the ramp. A bit of regulatory overkill but there were nice and professional. The PIC was well versed in regs and we had all of our paperwork in order (in fact, said PIC and the FAA vets jointly turned the ramp check into a training session for the newer inspectors).

For us this turned out to be a good experience but they did ground a helo; poor buy flew all the way from WV to be told to head home....

I guess the moral of the story to to keep that paperwork up to date...

richkolasa · **Posted:** Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:53 am

Rauhbatz wrote:

Greetings fellow Wixer's

Regrets that over the years the ride price for the SBD (as well as other a/c) have risen over the years along with just about everything else associated with warbird operations; I recollect in my first long x-cntry in the SBD not too long ago when we bought 100LL for 1.99 gallon.

BTW, the 20 min is wheels up to landing...pure flying time. :spit2

I did have an interesting experience a few years back at a small show in NE Ohio. We landed in a warbird and there were 5 FAA inspectors on the ramp. A bit of regulatory overkill but there were nice and professional. The PIC was well versed in regs and we had all of our paperwork in order (in fact, said PIC and the FAA vets jointly turned the ramp check into a training session for the newer inspectors).

For us this turned out to be a good experience but they did ground a helo; poor buy flew all the way from WV to be told to head home....

I guess the moral of the story to to keep that paperwork up to date...

I mean no disrespect, nor am I trying to start a "flame war", but it just seems to me that the CAF and like-minded organizations would do themselves better to adjust with market forces.

The company I work for was getting killed early this year (through March), with revenues down about 60% over same time last year. Our marketing/sales people got together with management and they pushed amazing discounts.

While our competitors were folding, we've prospered immensely (including reinstating all "cut hours" to most employees). Our revenue for the past 2.5 months has consistently exceeded last year's by up to 25% over same period.

With avgas being down at about $3.85/gal at New Garden, I would have thought that doing maybe 6-7 rides at $400/per would have made the CAF more money than 2 or 3 at $595. I certainly would have gone.

Just my opinion, in any regard, I wish all warbird-rides programs the greatest success.

Rich

Mudge · **Posted:** Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:01 am

Speaking of avgas prices...I know at MAAM we saw a sign on the avgas truck that read $3.00 per gal. on the left side and $3.85 on the right.

Mudge the observant :shock:

flyingsailor · **Posted:** Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:04 pm

richkolasa wrote:

Rauhbatz wrote:

Greetings fellow Wixer's

Regrets that over the years the ride price for the SBD (as well as other a/c) have risen over the years along with just about everything else associated with warbird operations; I recollect in my first long x-cntry in the SBD not too long ago when we bought 100LL for 1.99 gallon.

BTW, the 20 min is wheels up to landing...pure flying time. :spit2

I did have an interesting experience a few years back at a small show in NE Ohio. We landed in a warbird and there were 5 FAA inspectors on the ramp. A bit of regulatory overkill but there were nice and professional. The PIC was well versed in regs and we had all of our paperwork in order (in fact, said PIC and the FAA vets jointly turned the ramp check into a training session for the newer inspectors).

For us this turned out to be a good experience but they did ground a helo; poor buy flew all the way from WV to be told to head home....

I guess the moral of the story to to keep that paperwork up to date...

I mean no disrespect, nor am I trying to start a "flame war", but it just seems to me that the CAF and like-minded organizations would do themselves better to adjust with market forces.

The company I work for was getting killed early this year (through March), with revenues down about 60% over same time last year. Our marketing/sales people got together with management and they pushed amazing discounts.

While our competitors were folding, we've prospered immensely (including reinstating all "cut hours" to most employees). Our revenue for the past 2.5 months has consistently exceeded last year's by up to 25% over same period.

With avgas being down at about $3.85/gal at New Garden, I would have thought that doing maybe 6-7 rides at $400/per would have made the CAF more money than 2 or 3 at $595. I certainly would have gone.

Just my opinion, in any regard, I wish all warbird-rides programs the greatest success.

Rich

Rich
Don't forget that fuel prices are just one part of the cost equation. I know the last engine that we had overhauled for Ol'927 cost us $58,000. One of the things that we are concerned about is the other three engines on the airplane have over 700 hours on them, we are looking at overhauling all three in the next three to four years (depending on how they check out each year). Also insurance has gone up dramatically in the past several years as well.

Just my $0.0002 worth

Chris

richkolasa · **Posted:** Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:27 pm

flyingsailor wrote:

richkolasa wrote:

Rauhbatz wrote:

Greetings fellow Wixer's

Regrets that over the years the ride price for the SBD (as well as other a/c) have risen over the years along with just about everything else associated with warbird operations; I recollect in my first long x-cntry in the SBD not too long ago when we bought 100LL for 1.99 gallon.

BTW, the 20 min is wheels up to landing...pure flying time. :spit2

I did have an interesting experience a few years back at a small show in NE Ohio. We landed in a warbird and there were 5 FAA inspectors on the ramp. A bit of regulatory overkill but there were nice and professional. The PIC was well versed in regs and we had all of our paperwork in order (in fact, said PIC and the FAA vets jointly turned the ramp check into a training session for the newer inspectors).

For us this turned out to be a good experience but they did ground a helo; poor buy flew all the way from WV to be told to head home....

I guess the moral of the story to to keep that paperwork up to date...

I mean no disrespect, nor am I trying to start a "flame war", but it just seems to me that the CAF and like-minded organizations would do themselves better to adjust with market forces.

The company I work for was getting killed early this year (through March), with revenues down about 60% over same time last year. Our marketing/sales people got together with management and they pushed amazing discounts.

While our competitors were folding, we've prospered immensely (including reinstating all "cut hours" to most employees). Our revenue for the past 2.5 months has consistently exceeded last year's by up to 25% over same period.

With avgas being down at about $3.85/gal at New Garden, I would have thought that doing maybe 6-7 rides at $400/per would have made the CAF more money than 2 or 3 at $595. I certainly would have gone.

Just my opinion, in any regard, I wish all warbird-rides programs the greatest success.

Rich

Rich
Don't forget that fuel prices are just one part of the cost equation. I know the last engine that we had overhauled for Ol'927 cost us $58,000. One of the things that we are concerned about is the other three engines on the airplane have over 700 hours on them, we are looking at overhauling all three in the next three to four years (depending on how they check out each year). Also insurance has gone up dramatically in the past several years as well.

Just my $0.0002 worth

Chris

Seems to me all the more reason that the airplane needs to make money rather than sit on the ground if you're going to fly it 800 miles to an appearance. Just a different philosophy.

I'm glad to be where I am with our management's philosophy, as I'm prospering because of it. I hope the warbird operators prosper also, as I hate seeing aircraft grounded.

Rich

richkolasa · **Posted:** Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:28 pm

Mudge wrote:

Speaking of avgas prices...I know at MAAM we saw a sign on the avgas truck that read $3.00 per gal. on the left side and $3.85 on the right.

Mudge the observant :shock:

Yeah, but you didn't tell us how long it took you to walk to the other side of the truck! Inflation can hit pretty fast now-adays!

Rich

flyingsailor · **Posted:** Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:49 pm

Rich

This is why we are being much more selective on making sure that before we fly somewhere we are going to at least cover costs and put some money away before we start the props. Our ops and maintenance people are currently working together to determine the actual costs per hour including mx, fuel, oil, etc. I suspect that this will surprise a number of people, at least with Ol' 927.

The squadron has had a number of discussions in the past few years about the rides program, costs etc. Trust me, we are willing to try just about anything to make sure that we do not park the airplane!

Chris

wendovertom · **Posted:** Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:43 pm

wow - good discussion!!

If you want the WHOLE ENCHILADA - come out to Wendover, Utah on July 17-19 and you can tour and get a ride on "Sentimental Journey" - it is $425 if I remember right. However, we will have the bonus of having 1-3 457th Bomb group veterans joining us (Sentimental Journey is painted in 457th colors) AND Wendover is where the 457th was based during stateside training. I will also throw in a free base tour - get to see the officers club, atomic bomb loading pit, original flightline, tower, barracks and maybe even the enlisted mess hall!

But wait it gets better! The classic Jet Aircraft Association is also holding a "Jet Blast" event the same weekend! I can guarantee at least a MIG-15, 3 T-33s and a couple L-39s. Maybe and hopefully more - I'll know better the closer we get.

I hope and pray warbird rides continue - I know that when Pacific Princess has been to Wendover they sell almost more rides than they can do! My experience is also that if you are respectful and willing to buy some JetA that the jet pilots are willing to actually go for a short hop as well

Several years ago we hosted the then "Diamond Lil" and FIFI - Diamond Lil had to cut it off because they had so many folks wanting to buy rides - and "spookythecat", I hate to say it but I got a ride on FIFI from Ogden Utah to Wendover - we were the first B-29 back on the field since the end of WWII!!

I will, as a museum board member, do all I can to help preserve warbird rides - it is an incredible experience and historic tie to the past.

Tom P.

ktst97 · **Posted:** Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:18 pm

Kim and I had a flight aboard Yankee Lady recently at Sevierville, TN. This was done as part of my master plan to spend my last dime just seconds before taking my last breath. Yes, it did leave a dent in my "fun" budget for this summer, but Kim has agreed that it was a ton of fun and she is so glad I forced her to go. We intend to add B-25, T-6, and C-47 rides in the couple years.

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