Watson Lake Recoveries - Canada

[TonyM]

I got the impression that the AAF stripped the aircraft of usable equipment while it was sitting on the ice. I would assume the nose was separated at that time.

SN

Steve, that's right.

According to Blake W. Smith's excellent book WARPLANES TO ALASKA :

"...army crews salvaged some [vital equipment] before abandoning the three B-26s to the wilderness."

TonyM.

No, the information I am getting from site suggests that it was recently removed, and that there may be photos of the aircraft relatively intact in the lake prior to removal of the cockpit?

Regards

Mark Pilkington

I was referring to the USAAF removing equipment from the airplanes, not the nose being separated from the aircraft in question. Sorry for the mix up.

TonyM.

[Jesse C.]

Its not legal size yet! Throw it back until it grows a tail!

[spartakle]

I thought I might add a few thoughts about the recent recovery of the nose-section of the B-26 bomber from Watson Lake, Yukon Territory. In September 1986 I performed a side-scan sonar search of Watson Lake and other than a few curious blips on the screen I could see nothing that looked like the signiture of an airplane. I had a partner who had experience in looking for submerged airplanes (he did contract work for the police when a plane went down in water) and had been involved in the locating and raising of a Hampden bomber off Vancouver Island in 1986. In the deep area of Watson Lake that lies between the island and the airfield we saw a blip that looked like a truck or some similarly shaped item and that may have been the B-26 nose-section. We had several days of ideal weather with calm water and felt that our scan was thorough and came away with a high degree of certainty that there was no airplanes in the lake (besides the lincoln bomber on the shore).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23057174@N ... 446995276/

I had visited Watson Lake a few more times afterward and on one visit I saw a guy loading diving gear on to a small boat and got talking to his partner about what the diving was like in the lake and if there was anything interesting to see. The partner was chatty and said that his buddy dove the lake a lot and claimed that there was jeeps and tools from WWII on the lake-bottom plus what he described as 2 "Grummans," and that he had pictures of him in the cockpit of the aircraft. I found out that the diver was living in Upper Liard, a few miles away from Watson Lake, and attempted to track him down and see the pictures. Unfortunately I was unable to track him down and never did see the evidence. This news came as a surprise to me having done the sonar-scan 4 years earlier but the story seemed convincing, in part because I acted like a tourist passing through with no knowledge of WWII plane types and the history of the area. One thing that I found interesting was that this diver always dove alone, his buddy stayed on top with the boat and he said that his buddy was often hired to dive in flooded mine shafts and other high-risk situations. I did watch from shore to see where they anchored and it was in the area of deep water where the B-26 nose was recently raised from.

Blake

[camshaw]

can I ask why any diver would spend thousands of dollars refilling his scuba tanks to unbolt the nose section of a plane when in two days of rigging the plane you could lift the whole plane to the surface? why spend all the time underwater unbolting the nose section? you know darn well that he surely didn't unbolt all the control cables and wiring harness prior to lifting the nose, its all been cut with shears and wirecutters down in the deep, just raise the whole craft,not just a nose? If its down there,get it up and then figure out the red tape which should of been figured out prior to the removal of the nose...at least its up,nice to see all the clean paint too...good work boys,now get the rest of it...If the darn city claims it,they should pay the salvager for the service!....the city or township wont justify an old bomber cost for their city park I'm sure of that!

[Mark_Pilkington]

Blake,

thanks for those photos, an interesting comment you make in them is that the local divers refer to "two" Grummans being in the lake, given the recovery of 1 Martin Maraulder cockpit, and suggestions it was removed from a complete airframe does this suggest that there are "two" surviving in the Lake relatively intact? (with apparantly at least three being listed as forced down at Watsons Lake?, as per TonyM's post in the other thread on this story)

Three of them got lost and ran out of fuel, resulting in forced landings near Watson Lake. The three airplanes that crash landed that day:

B-26 # 40-1459, piloted by 2Lt. E.S. Avery
B-26 # 40-1464, piloted by 2Lt. W.J. Dancer
B-26 # 40-1502, piloted by 1Lt. G.A. Doolittle

Further, two airplanes were involved in accidents upon take-off from White Horse and landing at landing at Watson Lake. They were:

B-26 # 40-1461, piloted by 1Lt. J.G. Pickard; crash while taking off from White Horse.
B-26 # 40-1453, piloted by 2Lt. G.S. Stevens; crashed while landing at Watson Lake.

An excellent outcome for the surviving population if so?


I was wondering if your side scan located the rear fuselage of the Lincoln in the lake, which is reputed to remain in the lake not on the shore, and apparantly visible from boats and the air?

regards

Mark Pilkington

[spartakle]

With respect to performing the tedious task of dismantling the B-26 nose-section underwater and raising it in pieces I don't think it has been established for certain that it was disconnected from an intact B-26 while underwater. There was talk of other pieces being down there but that was not disclosed as a certainty. It could be that the nose of this B-26 was all that was dumped into the lake as they closed down the military airbase after the war. It could also be possible that the rest of the B-26 was crushed and burried in the dump, which I might add has yielded a few aviation artifacts over the years. My friend Murray Biggin of Whitehorse found a P-39 instrument panel in the dump and it had the tail serial number of a P-39 flown by Frank McClure that went down on a frozen lake 40 miles west of Watson Lake in Feb 1943. Apparently a few bits & pieces were salvaged from this P-39 and brought back to Watson Lake for spares.

As to what is fact and what is fiction on the bottom of Watson Lake I can't say for sure. After I had done the sonar scan I would have said it was mostly fiction but after hearing the reports from the divers that I met and the recent B-26 nose recovery its abviously partly fact.

Another side note: when I scanned the lake in Sept 1986 locals had said that the Canadian navy diver were sent (a couple of years previous to my visit) to the lake to explore reports of DDT barrels on the lake-bottom (DDT was used to keep the mosquitoes at bay). I guess that when the war ended the lake was the most convienient place to dispose of things and these barrels and other things ended up in the lake. The Canadian navy also removed the engines from the Lincoln bomber on the shore and other reports claimed that they disposed of some ordinance that was on the lake-bottom.

About the 2 Grummans reported by the diver: it may be that he wasn't clear on aircraft types and just called them Grummans. Certainly US Navy aircraft went through Watson Lake from time to time during the war but I don't have any reports of crashes at that location. Navy aircraft going to & from Alaska tended to use the coastal route more than the Northwest Staging Route.

Blake

[daveymac82c]

Do you think the diver said Grummans and mean the trusty old delivery truck?

As for the diver, I've heard the diver story from Watson Lake, but it was with a P-40, which is entirely possible.

With regards to the chance that maybe just the nose section was dumped in the lake, there's a good chance of that, especially how cleanly the nose was seperated (the quite a big job underwater).

Cheers,

David

[ZRX61]

Do you think the diver said Grummans and mean the trusty old delivery truck?
Cheers,

David

or a couple of Roach Coaches..

[jamesintucson]

Blake,

thanks for those photos, an interesting comment you make in them is that the local divers refer to "two" Grummans being in the lake, given the recovery of 1 Martin Maraulder cockpit, and suggestions it was removed from a complete airframe does this suggest that there are "two" surviving in the Lake relatively intact? (with apparantly at least three being listed as forced down at Watsons Lake?, as per TonyM's post in the other thread on this story)

Three of them got lost and ran out of fuel, resulting in forced landings near Watson Lake. The three airplanes that crash landed that day:

B-26 # 40-1459, piloted by 2Lt. E.S. Avery
B-26 # 40-1464, piloted by 2Lt. W.J. Dancer
B-26 # 40-1502, piloted by 1Lt. G.A. Doolittle

Further, two airplanes were involved in accidents upon take-off from White Horse and landing at landing at Watson Lake. They were:

B-26 # 40-1461, piloted by 1Lt. J.G. Pickard; crash while taking off from White Horse.
B-26 # 40-1453, piloted by 2Lt. G.S. Stevens; crashed while landing at Watson Lake.

An excellent outcome for the surviving population if so?


I was wondering if your side scan located the rear fuselage of the Lincoln in the lake, which is reputed to remain in the lake not on the shore, and apparantly visible from boats and the air?

regards

Mark Pilkington

Guys,

Those three listed as crashing near Watson Lake are the surviving population. They are the planes at Fantasy of Flight, MAPS, and Pima that Tallichet recovered 30 years ago. Everybody seems to be getting themselves worked up about a whole lot of not too much here. One of my coworkers was interviewed by the CBC about all this. As I understand it all that was found in the lake was the nose. The people who recovered it were still looking to see if there was anything else when the RCMP busted up the party. This find is cool, but a gold mine of recoverable B-26s it 'aint.

James

[Mark_Pilkington]

Quote:
Three of them got lost and ran out of fuel, resulting in forced landings near Watson Lake. The three airplanes that crash landed that day:

B-26 # 40-1459, piloted by 2Lt. E.S. Avery
B-26 # 40-1464, piloted by 2Lt. W.J. Dancer
B-26 # 40-1502, piloted by 1Lt. G.A. Doolittle

Further, two airplanes were involved in accidents upon take-off from White Horse and landing at landing at Watson Lake. They were:

B-26 # 40-1461, piloted by 1Lt. J.G. Pickard; crash while taking off from White Horse.
B-26 # 40-1453, piloted by 2Lt. G.S. Stevens; crashed while landing at Watson Lake.

Guys,

Those three listed as crashing near Watson Lake are the surviving population. They are the planes at Fantasy of Flight, MAPS, and Pima that Tallichet recovered 30 years ago. Everybody seems to be getting themselves worked up about a whole lot of not too much here. One of my coworkers was interviewed by the CBC about all this. As I understand it all that was found in the lake was the nose. The people who recovered it were still looking to see if there was anything else when the RCMP busted up the party. This find is cool, but a gold mine of recoverable B-26s it 'aint.

James

James, you are correct in that the first 3 listed aircraft are the Tallechet Million Dollar Valley recoveries from British Columbia, other than some ambiguity on the ID of 40-1502/40-1501 and are all accounted for and under restoration elsewhere.

However the entry regarding B-26 # 40-1453, piloted by 2Lt. G.S. Stevens; crashed while landing at Watson Lake would seem to be very relevent to history of this cockpit section?

However the issue of how many aircraft are in the lake is not derived from the list above, but from comments from Blakes "flicker" posts


http://www.flickr.com/photos/23057174@N02/sets/72157619446995276/

Varis had performed other searches for aircraft on lake and ocean bottoms and is seen here studying the monitor for indication of interesting targets on the bottom of Watson Lake. Several "possibles" appeared but nothing with a distinctly "airplane" look to it.

In June 2009 a B-26 nose-section was raised from the lake by a family from Alberta, which came as a surprise to me. We had seen a large blip on our sonar monitor but the shape made us think it was a truck. I became aware of the possibility of 2 airplanes on the bottom of Watson Lake in 1992 when I met a diver on the lake who claimed to regularly dive on 2 planes and had sat in the cockpit.

I took this picture at Watson Lake in June 1991 of local diver Todd Boulton from Upper Liard. I asked his partner if there was anything in the lake that was interesting from a diving point of view and he said that there was lots of interesting things including Jeeps, tools and 2 airplanes that he called "grummans." He said that Todd had photos of these things but I was unable to track him down in the days afterwards to see the photos. All this came as a surprise to me because I had done a thorough side-scan of the lake in September 1986. It also came as a surprise to me when in June 2009 the nose-section of a B-26 was raised from the deep area just off the end of the runway.

Information I have had seperately from locals indicated the cockpit may have been recently removed, and that the photos of the complete aircraft in the lake did exist (the photos lining up with Blake's comments above), however that source has'nt confirmed or suggested the existance of 2?, it is only the quotes above suggest that possibility? and that obviously could be incorrect.

Of course at this stage the only confirmed item in existance is 1 cockpit, what else exists will come to light eventually as part of this situation?


There is only 8 known B-26 survivors world wide, a number of which forced landed in British Colombia in 1942 and were recovered in @1971 from Million Dollar Valley by Dave Tallichet a US collector, it would seem the Watson Lake aircraft/cockpit is from the same flight of 13 aircraft as a number of the aircraft recovered from BC in 1971.

These are:
40-1370 under restoration at the USAF Hill Aerospace Museum at Hill AFB (a former Tallechet recovery a/c)
40-1426 derelict wreck abandoned on Trobriand Island following crash - PNG
40-1459 under restoration at the MAPS museum in Ohio (another former Tallechet recovery a/c) note it is listed in the history above as being in the same flight of 13.
40-1464 under airworthy restoration at the Fantasy of Flight Museum Florida (another former Tallechet recovery a/c)
40-1501 under static restoration at the Pima Air & Space Museum Arizona (another former Tallechet recovery a/c)
41-31773 - Fuselage Display (rest of a/c in storage) at Smithonian/National AeroSpace Museum of USA - Washington (picture attached)
43-34581 - Display National Museum of the USAF Dayton Ohio (former French air force a/c)
44-68219 - Display Musee de L'Air -France (former french air force a/c)
2 or 3 other cockpit sections survive in storage

I am not aware of the ID of the Watsons Lake cockpit/airframe being confirmed, yet it is being identified as "The Flying Prostitute", I am not sure if that suggests nose art is intact, or the identity is known?

In anycase the article below suggests more of the derelict airframe exists to be recovered?, although its unclear how much, or if its been located as yet?, however the two brothers seem confident there is enough in the lake to restore a complete aircraft rather than just a cockpit?

However even an intact cockpit section is a healthy additional survivor to add to the 8 relatively intact examples and the other 2-3 cockpits surviving from the 5288 built between February 1941 and March 1945.

It would be hoped someone might one day recover the derelict 40-1426 from PNG and place one of these surplus cockpit sections on it to replace its damaged section destroyed in the forced landing, to form yet another complete restored example?

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/646307

Two charged after raising WWII bomber from lake


'The Flying Prostitute' crashed en route to aid Russia in 1942
Jun 05, 2009 04:41 PM

Bob Weber
THE CANADIAN PRESS

The fate of a derelict Second World War bomber once nicknamed ``The Flying Prostitute" is up in the air since two Calgary brothers fished part of it out of a remote Yukon lake.

The brothers want to complete the salvage and see the B-26 Marauder restored and placed in a museum. But the territorial government, suspecting a profit motive, has grounded their plans and is charging the pair with violating the territory's heritage legislation.

"Our past is not to be peddled," Jeff Hunston of the Heritage Resources Department said Friday. "We want our heritage in the Yukon."

The B-26 was a high-speed, medium-weight bomber developed by the United States and saw action in several theatres of the war. Some were used during the D-Day invasion, the 65th anniversary of which is being marked this weekend.

The plane's nickname was derived from its short wingspan, which appeared to give it no visible means of support.

Many Marauders were part of a lend-lease program that helped arm Russia against the Nazi invasion. In a massive airlift called the Northwest Staging Route, about 7,000 warplanes were flown from Great Falls, Mont., to Fairbanks, Alaska, en route to Siberia. There were stops in Canada to refuel.

On Jan. 16, 1942, six of them left Great Falls. Three got lost in Yukon airspace and crashed after running out of fuel, said Bob Cameron, a Yukon aviation buff in Whitehorse. The fourth crash-landed on the ice of Watson Lake and another crashed on takeoff as it set out again. Only one made it to Fairbanks.

"That was an unlucky group of airplanes," he said.

Enter history buffs Brian and John Jasman, who found one of the planes last year with a sonar device. They had been combing through declassified military records and accident reports for 20 years. This spring, the brothers floated the nose cone of the derelict up to the surface and hauled it to shore.

"It was kind of amazing," said Brian Jasman from his campsite beside Watson Lake, just north of the British Columbia-Yukon boundary.

"It should be in a museum where everybody could see it. Sitting in 70 feet of water, it's just going to rot to nothing."

The Jasmans were starting their search for the rest of the plane when the territorial government stepped in.

"The government of the Yukon owns that plane," said Hunston.

The Northwest Staging Route helped establish some of the territory's modern-day airports, he said. The many warplane wrecks it left behind are important artifacts of Yukon history – and potential tourist attractions.

Hunston suspects the Jasmans' motives.

"We're well aware of the antique warbird market out there. There's a lot of money to be made and even parts can be hot commodities."

Although thousands of Marauders were built, there are only a handful in museums and even fewer in flying condition.

Hunston fears the Watson Lake Marauder could wind up in an American private collection, much like a P-39 Cobra fighter that was allowed to leave the Yukon and ended up in a private museum in Oregon.

"We, too, want our warbird heritage preserved and exhibited in museums so that everybody benefits."

Hunston said the brothers have been served notice to appear in court on charges under the territory's heritage legislation. They could face a fine of up to $50,000.

But the Jasmans claim finders, keepers. Brian says the U.S. air force has relinquished any claim on the wreck. He also points out that the plane's location underwater places it under federal, not territorial, legislation.

"We're going to stick it out and let the lawyer deal with it and see what happens. Legally, they can't take it."

So, for now, the Marauder sits atop a trailer alongside the Watson Lake airport where it attempted to land 67 years ago.

There are dozens of relics like it along the old flight route. Just this week, a pair of unexploded 227-kilogram bombs were found near the airport.

The Marauder isn't even the only wreck in Watson Lake. Cameron said an old Lancaster bomber is visible from the surface.

The town's airport was a maintenance depot during the war and used for testing in the years afterward.

"There have been quite a few accidents in Watson Lake," Cameron said.

Regards

Mark Pilkington

[jamesintucson]

Mark,

That quote string was getting a little long so I won't quote your post. I've seen photos of the B-26 nose before it was lifted from the water. In fact I saw them a few days before the nose was lifted out. The photos were closeups that did not show anything else except the nose section but the email stated that there was nothing else close to the nose on the bottom. The person could have been fibbing or mistaken but I've no reason to think so. The photos were taken within the last two weeks. They aren't mine to release even though the cat is well out of the bag now.

Its hard to say what the brothers think is down there from what is in that article. We all know newspapers are notorious for simplifying things. They could just be saying that they want to see the nose section completely restored versus a full airplane, or they have no clue how hard it is to build a complete airplane from scratch.

Those Flicker comments just say that the diver says he has sat in the cockpits of two planes. It doesn't say either or both of them are complete.

The nose is a great find and hopefully it will go to a museum for display, I never intended to imply that it wasn't worth saving.

By the way, "Flying Prostitute" was a common nickname for the Marauder and I don't think its use here implies that this plane had any kind of name.

I know there have been plans several times recently to recover that B-26 in PNG. One a couple of years ago one was even partially funded before it stopped when the money man died unexpectedly.

James

[Mark_Pilkington]

James,

In the end I guess we are all speculating on whats still there other than admiring a marvelous cockpit section that has surfaced.

Thanks for disclosing what you do know or understand, I'm not in a position to dis-agree as my information is certainly 3rd hand compared to yours, and I have'nt personally seen any photos that are supposedly proving otherwise?

I would certainly agree there would seem little reason for your email sender not to disclose the entire airframe if it existed, if they are willing to bring you into their confidence regarding the intended cockpit recovery and be sending you photos of it prior to the recovery?

I was aware of the "widow maker" and (I think) the "flying coffin"??? nick names, I wasnt aware of the "flying prostitute" as another nickname for the type? and hence assumed it to be nose art, but I still suspect this is # 40-1453?

I would agree the newspaper quotes, or even Blakes flicker comments dont neccessarily prove what else remains under the water?

However I do suspect there will now be some serious investigations undertaken of the site, and the history of the cockpit, regardless of the disputed ownership, including follow-ups with the diver named in Blake's comments?

I am also pleased to hear there has been serious consideration of recovering the PNG wreck 40-1426, the type is too rare not to attempt to restore that wreck with one of the surplus cockpit sections, and preserve it long term, its one advantage so far is perhaps its too remote for local scrapping efforts?

regards

Mark Pilkington

[jamesintucson]

James,

In the end I guess we are all speculating on whats still there other than admiring a marvelous cockpit section that has surfaced.

Thanks for disclosing what you do know or understand, I'm not in a position to dis-agree as my information is certainly 3rd hand compared to yours, and I have'nt personally seen any photos that are supposedly proving otherwise?

I would certainly agree there would seem little reason for your email sender not to disclose the entire airframe if it existed, if they are willing to bring you into their confidence regarding the intended cockpit recovery and be sending you photos of it prior to the recovery?

I was aware of the "widow maker" and (I think) the "flying coffin"??? nick names, I wasnt aware of the "flying prostitute" as another nickname for the type? and hence assumed it to be nose art, but I still suspect this is # 40-1453?

I would agree the newspaper quotes, or even Blakes flicker comments dont neccessarily prove what else remains under the water?

However I do suspect there will now be some serious investigations undertaken of the site, and the history of the cockpit, regardless of the disputed ownership, including follow-ups with the diver named in Blake's comments?

I am also pleased to hear there has been serious consideration of recovering the PNG wreck 40-1426, the type is too rare not to attempt to restore that wreck with one of the surplus cockpit sections, and preserve it long term, its one advantage so far is perhaps its too remote for local scrapping efforts?

regards

Mark Pilkington

One of the photos I saw showed part of the data block painted under the cockpit. It was still very legible. Unfortunately, the photo did not show the serial number but the email stated that it is indeed 40-1453's nose that was recovered.

I suspect, but can't prove, that the nose was removed from the wreck sometime during the war and abandoned to sink into the lake. Why that would have happened is another question as is what happened to the rest of the plane. I hope there is a detailed survey to find out what else is in the lake and that someone, with the correct permits this time, is able to recover anything interesting.

James

[daveymac82c]

I just came across this article from the Yukon News.

http://www.yukon-news.com/news/13051/

It's put a different slant on the story. And, to be honest, I believe it. There are rules and regulations that I swear NOBODY in our government understands, and with very little communication between departments it is easy to see how nobody knew who was responsible.

As a fact, the US military no longer holds ownership of any WWII war materials in Canada. Shortly after the way (can't remember which year) everything was signed over to the Canadian Government.

I feel bad for this family that is clearly very passionate about aviation and military history. It appears that they tried their hardest to figure out what the heck they had to do to not get in trouble, but since nobody in our government know, or at least they didn't ask the right people, it has turned into a big problem.

Also it sounds like the true value of the artifact was not understood and pieces have been stolen from it.

Cheers,

David McIntosh
Vancouver, BC

[paulmcmillan]

Looks like we have a provisional ID now based on the fact that of the 'two others' one crashed on landing the other on take off

"B-26 # 40-1453, piloted by 2Lt. G.S. Stevens; crashed while landing at Watson Lake."

Newspaper arftcle says

"He has copies of the original crash report, dated January 16, 1942: “Undershot on landing due to inexperience with snow-blanketed terrain,” it says.

One crew member broke his arm, but nobody died in the crash. The shattered aircraft sank close to shore."