Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:45 pm
Wow...... Flying an F-86 without a parachute......... Not real smart.
I never knew the engine wasn't windmilling.....
Mark H
EDIT: Not attacking Z for not wearing a parachute. I can't imagine flying a warbird without a parachute or a helmet. I wear a helmet in the helicopter.
I never knew the engine wasn't windmilling.....
Mark H
EDIT: Not attacking Z for not wearing a parachute. I can't imagine flying a warbird without a parachute or a helmet. I wear a helmet in the helicopter.
Last edited by P51Mstg on Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:11 pm
P51Mstg wrote:Wow...... Flying an F-86 without a parachute......... Not real smart.
I never knew the engine wasn't windmilling.....
Mark H
Z was a pretty big guy...I'm not sure that any ejection seat or parachute would have had a performance envelope that could accomodate his weight and size.
Just a thought.
Kind of hard to read everyone tossing grenades at Dave like this...whether they be true or not. He was a fun guy and I miss him...even some 20 years later.
Brad
Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:46 pm
P51Mstg wrote:Allow me to expand the former post a bit.
From memory, I recall the incident. Dave in the F-86 and Chuck Thorton in the T-38 were making some flybys at an airshow in CA somewhere. The runway was too short for them to land so the plan was do a few flybys and return home.
Dave had an engine failure for a reason I am unaware of.
I have read the F-86 flight manual several times since at one point was going to buy one. I recall 2 things from it. First if you have to do a belly landing leave the tanks on to save the airframe. Second so you have flight controls you need to keep the speed up to something like 180kts to keep the engine turning to keep the pumps pumping and make the stick work and keep the airplane under control.
..........Mark H
Doesn't the F-86 have manual reversion if the hydraulic pumps fail? I would think an aircraft of that vintage would. But maybe not since the military would just have the guys bail out if it lost hyd.....
Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:44 pm
Not tossing grenades. The facts can be uncomfortable I guess. I know that one of the investigators was at the time an active F-86 pilot with the USN.Speedy wrote:Kind of hard to read everyone tossing grenades at Dave like this...whether they be true or not. He was a fun guy and I miss him...even some 20 years later.
Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:26 pm
I vaguely remember when this happened. Tom Woods was rebuilding an F-86 in Indiana and was looking for a GE J-47 engine for his project. One of my flight instructors, the late Fred Bunyan said Tom had called him looking for a good engine. Fred was from Fort Wayne and had been a test pilot for North American on the F-86's and the AJ Savage, etc. and had known TOm's dad who also had been in aviation.
I told him that there was a flyable F-86 for sale in Trade a Plane owned by the engine builder Zeuschel. Through conversations, we found out that Nashville's P-51 mechanic , Roland Coles had been contacted about the matter and the problem with Zeushels F-86 is that it didn't have a good engine either.
At the time, Zeushel was one of the best V-12 engine rebuilders in the world, and was doing the work on the J-47 himself. Roland said that it was taking 4 or 5 attempts to get it started each time and that the engine temps were extemely high compared to RPMs.
He declined to get involved and said that in his military experience they alway changed an engine out when it was that sick. Zeuschel was really perplexed with the darn thing.
The story I heard is that the airplane had just taken off and had full tanks including the drop tanks. He wasn't high enough to do anything else but to try to land back on the airport. The Dash one flight manual calls for landing on the tanks when they are empty, and skidding, not when they are full. This was demonstrated recently when "Snort" landed the POF's F-86A on its empty drop tanks after forgetting to lower the gear.
I'm not an F-86 guy but let me share some numbers from the Learjet 35A for comparison. Max landing speed at full fuel, two pilot's, is 135 knots. Add 30 knots for a no flap landing, or 165 knots. Best glide in the clean configuration would be 195 knots. then add that he was returning to the runway he just departed so add 15 knots of tailwind to his landing speed for about a 210 to 215 knot groundspeed when contacting the ground with aluminum tanks, not wheels. (Max wheel speed is 182 knots)
Now you can see why his F-86 appeared to be bouncing or porpoising on impact before exploding.
I told him that there was a flyable F-86 for sale in Trade a Plane owned by the engine builder Zeuschel. Through conversations, we found out that Nashville's P-51 mechanic , Roland Coles had been contacted about the matter and the problem with Zeushels F-86 is that it didn't have a good engine either.
At the time, Zeushel was one of the best V-12 engine rebuilders in the world, and was doing the work on the J-47 himself. Roland said that it was taking 4 or 5 attempts to get it started each time and that the engine temps were extemely high compared to RPMs.
He declined to get involved and said that in his military experience they alway changed an engine out when it was that sick. Zeuschel was really perplexed with the darn thing.
The story I heard is that the airplane had just taken off and had full tanks including the drop tanks. He wasn't high enough to do anything else but to try to land back on the airport. The Dash one flight manual calls for landing on the tanks when they are empty, and skidding, not when they are full. This was demonstrated recently when "Snort" landed the POF's F-86A on its empty drop tanks after forgetting to lower the gear.
I'm not an F-86 guy but let me share some numbers from the Learjet 35A for comparison. Max landing speed at full fuel, two pilot's, is 135 knots. Add 30 knots for a no flap landing, or 165 knots. Best glide in the clean configuration would be 195 knots. then add that he was returning to the runway he just departed so add 15 knots of tailwind to his landing speed for about a 210 to 215 knot groundspeed when contacting the ground with aluminum tanks, not wheels. (Max wheel speed is 182 knots)
Now you can see why his F-86 appeared to be bouncing or porpoising on impact before exploding.
Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:16 pm
marine air wrote:I The story I heard is that the airplane had just taken off and had full tanks including the drop tanks. He wasn't high enough to do anything else but to try to land back on the airport. The Dash one flight manual calls for landing on the tanks when they are empty, and skidding, not when they are full. This was demonstrated recently when "Snort" landed the POF's F-86A on its empty drop tanks after forgetting to lower the gear.
I'm not an F-86 guy but let me share some numbers from the Learjet 35A)
Now you can see why his F-86 appeared to be bouncing or porpoising on impact before exploding.
No he had not just taken off. He flew to Shafter from Van Nuys where the flybys took place. (It's about 70-80 miles from Van Nuys) I drove up with relatives to the airshow that morning and I was totally shocked and stunned when we got there and heard about the accident. I did not see it but got there an hour or so later. I was only 20 then, knew this stuff could happen but certainly wasn't prepared for it. Terrible day. Still, I guess there still could have been a lot of fuel onboard for the round trip flight back to Van Nuys.
Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:19 pm
Well. something happened:
Look, its flying!
I hear it is going to a racetrack in Arizona
And that there are two aircraft coming to take its place. One is supposed to be the V-173.
Look, its flying!
I hear it is going to a racetrack in Arizona
And that there are two aircraft coming to take its place. One is supposed to be the V-173.
Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:13 pm
Interesting. I was by there last Thursday and it was the same as it had been for the last several years.
Racetrack huh? I guess it's not going to be a flyer. Ratz.
Thanks for the picture.
Racetrack huh? I guess it's not going to be a flyer. Ratz.
Thanks for the picture.
Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:17 pm
Randy told me that he had sold it when I saw him at Randolph this weekend. No details were discussed, it was mentioned in passing.
Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:14 pm
Arizona Huh? Hope it's close by. 
Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:28 pm
Chris wrote:Arizona Huh? Hope it's close by.
Why ? so there can be 2 F-86D's rotting away in the valley ?
Go look at the one in downtown Chandler, it's left wing is full of corrosion.
Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:12 pm
It has a better chance of surviving the elements here than most other places Matt. And the one in Chandler is still owned by the USAF Museum. That can explain the general lack of upkeep as the locals are not willing to put any money to keep out all the nasties. If this one is privately owned, it may (hopefully) be a different story.