More Evidence Govt Out of Control

[mustangdriver]

UMMM why do you have an F-18 cockpit in your friggin barn? I think it is odd no one questions why some dude had a set of cockpits in his barn that belonged to high performance combat aircraft. Right away everyone jumps on the band wagon to bash the government, but you know nothing about the story other than they went there. The truth is no one here knows what went on there, but everyone is fast to just assume that the government must have it in for some poor old farmer that just wanted to have jet fighters in his barn. There are tons of cockpits people own and are on display other places, and you don't see the government showing up there. SO why here? I am not taking sides, just saying to find out the whole story rather than going off half cocked on part of the story.

because I thought I was an AMERICAN and its my right to own something that I paid for ...TWICE?

Like parts to a front line military aircraft? I am not taking sides just begging everyone to hear the whole story, and so far we have not, but you all are ready to have another tea party. Like randy said, our government may not be perfect, but it is hardly anywhere near in the neighorhhod of some others. Go to Iran and demand that you should own part of an F-14 and let me know how that goes for you.

[Randy Haskin]

I certainly understand the frustration that people are feeling that makes them upset with some of the things that the current political leadership has done in the last 4 or 5 years.

BUT.

People that think that the Patriot Act, or no-knock police raids, or wiretapping, or whatever, are even in the same league as no-sh*t dictatorships or military juntas...have a LOT to learn.

We still live in a country where the rule of law prevails. We live in a country where we are talk about free elections *every day* and fully intend to have one this November. Each of you are still able to read the internet -- any website you please -- at your leisure from your home. We live in a country where you can even CRITICIZE the current government openly.

Folks, please...have a bit of perspective. The sky is not falling. Things may not be going the way you want them to go, but it is far from the "tea party" that was jokingly mentioned earlier in this thread. If you can't realize that, then you live a very, very, VERY sheltered life and, worse, don't realize how good we really have it as free citizens in America.

Really want to see things change?

VOTE IN NOVEMBER.

It's that simple. That's how we "overthrow" regimes in America.

[6trn4brn]

Randy...with all due respect sir, have you looked at the three choices we have in the upcoming elections in November? Personally, I don't see any evidence at all of any of the three having the intestinal fortitude to slow the downward spiral of contempt towards our government in general.

I agree with you sir in that we do still live in the greatest country on Earth. However, we are supposed to learn from our mistakes made in the past. Every item you mentioned about Homeland Security, no-knock police raids etc. all point towards the title of this thread: Government out of control.

I have wondered if the times we live in now are akin to the general public's notion just prior to the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Then it was an enemy from foreign shores that woke the "sleeping giant" and galvanized our nation against the brutal Japanese aggression. We have all seen so many futile attempts by our current gubmint to try and garner the same feelings shortly after 9/11, but have fell flat on their faces when they lie to the American public about our need to go into Iraq. We all know now that the reasons for invading Iraq had nothing at all to do with the hunt for bin Laden and have stirred up a hornets nest that could see our military in Iraq for the next hundred years. What a mess!

Again sir, I mean no disrespect towards you or anyone else in uniform today. You are doing your job and doing it well. I salute you for that.

When I served, I believe I served under the last great commander-in-chief: Ronald Reagan. I think that if we could find someone in this country with his no BS attitude who really wanted to get things done to straighten out the mess in DC, they would win the election by a landslide. Until then, lock-up your goodies and sip the cool-aid

[Randy Haskin]

I don't find anything disrespectful about this topic. On the contrary...in my opinion, there's nothing more distinctively American than a spirited debate on the government or its policies. We're one place that allows such a thing...with no negative stigma. Can't say that about everywhere else on the planet.

Being "patriotic" certainly does NOT mean blindly following whomever has wrapped themselves in the flag and has an agenda. Being patriotic means acting on and really believing in those words in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights.

have you looked at the three choices we have in the upcoming elections in November?

And here I thought in America we could vote for anyone we wanted on election day.

Oh, yeah....we can.

Don't like the Republican or Democratic party nominees? Then vote for someone else.

[airnutz]

until we can find a way as a nation to stand up to our tyrannical regime run amuck,

Do you guys REALLY understand the words you're using when you say things like "tyrannical regime" and apply them to the current US government?

Ummmnn...Yep..True, Randy... Tyrannical could be a bit extreme, maybe Central Despotism is more correct.
We Southern Yokels tried to warn the Yankees of a few issues with States Rights..we had quite a bit of a scuffle over it.

Forget?...He11!!!
www.csaflags.com/meaning.html


Meaning of the Southern Cross

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"A nation which does not remember what it was yesterday does not know where it is today ... The reputation of an individual is of minor importance to the opinion posterity may form of the motives which governed the South in their late struggle for the maintenance of the principles of the Constitution. I hope therefore, a true history will be written, and justice will be done them." -- Gen. Robert E. Lee


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Southern Cross is the cross of St. Andrew, patron saint of Scotland since A.D. 750. The connection of the cross with St. Andrew can be traced back as far as the 13th century. It is believed that St. Andrew, brother of the the apostle Peter, was crucified by his persecutors upon a cross in the shape of an "X" in A.D. 60. Southerners, many of whom traced their ancestry to Scotland, very easily related to this Christian symbol. Southerners still do.


WORTHY to have lived and known our gratitude:
WORTHY to be hallowed and held in tender Remembrance:
WORTHY the Fadeless Fame which
CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS WON.
who gave themselves in life and Death for us:
For the honor of Georgia.
For the Rights of the States.
For the Liberties of the People.
For the Sentiments of the South.
For the Principles of the Union.
as these were handed down to them
by the Fathers of
OUR COMMON COUNTRY.
[Inscription on Confederate Monument, Augusta, GA]



"I was a soldier in Virginia in the campaigns of Lee and Jackson, and I declare I never met a Southern soldier who had drawn his sword to perpetuate slavery.... What he had chiefly at heart was the preservation of the supreme and sacred right of self- government.... It was a very small minority of the men who fought in the Southern armies who were financially interested in the institution of slavery." [Quote from The Gray Book, Sons of Confed. Vet's., p. 36]


Regarding the War Between the States, J. H. Thornwell (1812- 1862), President of South Carolina College & Professor at Columbia Theological Seminary wrote: "But the consequences of success on our part will be very different from the consequences of success on the part of the North. If they prevail, the whole character of the Government will be changed, and, instead of a federal republic, the common agent of sovereign and independent States, we shall have a central despotism, with the notion of States for ever abolished, deriving its powers from the will, and shaping its policy according to the wishes, of a numerical majority of the people; we shall have, in other words, a supreme, irresponsible democracy.... On the other hand, we are struggling for constitutional freedom. We are upholding the great principles which our fathers bequeathed us; and if we should succeed, and become, as we shall, the dominant nation of this continent, we shall perpetuate and diffuse the very liberty for which Washington bled, and which the heroes of the Revolution achieved. We are not revolutionists; we are resisting revolution. We are upholding the true doctrines of the Federal Constitution. We are conservative... We shall have a Government that acknowledges God, that reverences right, and that makes law supreme. We are therefore fighting, not for ourselves alone, but, when the struggle is rightly understood, for the salvation of this whole continent." [Life and Letters of James Henley Thornwell, pp. 582,583.]

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[RickH]

I agree Randy, I'm not so worried about the Administration, per se. My concern is more about career bureaucrats who abuse the system because they are the big guy on the block. These problems must be worked through Congressional action. As I've said before, when working the Skyhawk, I asked both verbaly and in writing multiple times, " Since when does DoD policy supercede public law? " Never got an answer, not once.

[Mudge]

All of these "tyrannical" and "despotism" references remind me of a statement that a Russian made about free speech in Russia.

"Certainly. In Russia we have free speech. You can say anything you want.
However, we have no guarantees that you won't be in jail shortly after you finish saying whatever you want."

Mudge the tyrant

(Was that too subtle?)

[PinecastleAAF]

It would be nice to know the complete story. Since the NCIS would not or did not divulge the name of the person they took the stuff from I think it will be hard for us to learn more.

[n5151ts]

UMMM why do you have an F-18 cockpit in your friggin barn? I think it is odd no one questions why some dude had a set of cockpits in his barn that belonged to high performance combat aircraft. Right away everyone jumps on the band wagon to bash the government, but you know nothing about the story other than they went there. The truth is no one here knows what went on there, but everyone is fast to just assume that the government must have it in for some poor old farmer that just wanted to have jet fighters in his barn. There are tons of cockpits people own and are on display other places, and you don't see the government showing up there. SO why here? I am not taking sides, just saying to find out the whole story rather than going off half cocked on part of the story.

because I thought I was an AMERICAN and its my right to own something that I paid for ...TWICE?

Like parts to a front line military aircraft? I am not taking sides just begging everyone to hear the whole story, and so far we have not, but you all are ready to have another tea party. Like randy said, our government may not be perfect, but it is hardly anywhere near in the neighorhhod of some others. Go to Iran and demand that you should own part of an F-14 and let me know how that goes for you.

the F-14 has been withdrawn from the inventory---or hadent you yet heard that...

[mustangdriver]

Yeah I heard something about it. But He also had an F-18 Hornet cockpit. Last time I checked the Hornet was frontline. And the F-14 is still has sensitive items in it. People in other countries want to get their hand on sstuff from the F-14 and F-18. Did you know that? Why is it such a problem that I just say wait to see what the guy was doing" Everyone just found it easy to jump on the band wagon of it must just be the government doing crazy things. What IF this guy IS trying to seel stuff to other countries? We don't know that yet. The stuff he has did not go through the proper channels to get to where it is. That is not putting the blame on him, but somewhere they did not get demilled all the way. It says that in the first two paragraphs.

[PinecastleAAF]

Regarding the F/A-18, isn't there one with an 'N' number on the civilain registry?

If so I would think the ower might be very concerned about this.

Were some F-14's surplused legally at one time? F/A-18's? Did the law change? Is there a law?

[RickH]

WHOA !!! You just said " can't we wait and see ", then YOU stated that

"The stuff he has did not go through the proper channels to get to where it is. "

Which is it ? The article said none of the stuff you are espousing.

O'Connor downplayed the military value of the cockpits, saying
they were "fully demilitarized" and no longer contained weapons
control systems or other technically sensitive material. "Even
their wiring had been removed," he added.

They did say that somehow they

got diverted
from their normal demilitarization process, and wound up in private
hands.

But that doesn't mean that they were illegally acquired. A demil code D means to remove any capability for which the item was originally intended. Seems like cutting a cockpit from the structure of the airframe effectively demils by their definition. There is also the provision for demilling in place, for instance, gutting a control box but leaving it cosmetically complete.

Here are the two paragraphs that are the real problem:

The Asbury Park Press in New Jersey reports the US Navy showed
up on Apple Farm Road in Middletown with a forklift, a flatbed
truck and about 20 troops from Naval Weapons Station Earle, where
Special Agent Terry O'Connor of the Naval Criminal Investigative
Service told the paper they'll be held as evidence.

So far, no one's been charged with a crime.

[PinecastleAAF]

Probably when the former 'owner' complains that is when he gets charged with a crime.

"YOUR PAPERS ARE NOT IN ORDER"

[mustangdriver]

WHOA !!! You just said " can't we wait and see ", then YOU stated that

"The stuff he has did not go through the proper channels to get to where it is. "

Which is it ? The article said none of the stuff you are espousing.

O'Connor downplayed the military value of the cockpits, saying
they were "fully demilitarized" and no longer contained weapons
control systems or other technically sensitive material. "Even
their wiring had been removed," he added.

They did say that somehow they

got diverted
from their normal demilitarization process, and wound up in private
hands.

But that doesn't mean that they were illegally acquired. A demil code D means to remove any capability for which the item was originally intended. Seems like cutting a cockpit from the structure of the airframe effectively demils by their definition. There is also the provision for demilling in place, for instance, gutting a control box but leaving it cosmetically complete.

Here are the two paragraphs that are the real problem:

The Asbury Park Press in New Jersey reports the US Navy showed
up on Apple Farm Road in Middletown with a forklift, a flatbed
truck and about 20 troops from Naval Weapons Station Earle, where
Special Agent Terry O'Connor of the Naval Criminal Investigative
Service told the paper they'll be held as evidence.

So far, no one's been charged with a crime.

I don't think that this guy is bad or good Rick, but your article says that it did not go through the proper demill then it says they did. Well which is it? I don't think that the guy did it on purpose, or maybe he had nothing to do with it at all. I am just saying that something somewhere got missed and that this isn't just a case of the government gone bad.

[Ztex]

Let's be nice fellas...try and keep things on topic.