Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:15 pm
Certainly not picking on you Gary! I was the guy that washed the fabric cement off of my hands with MEK. Makes it easy to find any cuts too! Back then disposable gloves were rare indeed. Hopefully I won't suffer any long term effects, but how would I know?retroaviation wrote:Good point, Brandon. As you read, I mentioned in my post about covering the wings, that I wasn't wearing gloves, but paid for it by digging glue out of my hands for a few days. Obviously, that is the short term affect for that kind of blunder. There is no doubt that, over time, those kinds of chemicals can be bad for you. I reckon I was just trying to tell it as an example of "what not to do." I can assure you though, that I wear a top quality respirator when painting.....especially with those "catylist type" paints.
All we can do is to warn others and hope they listen.
I spent an entire day at a machine equipment factory in China last year. I saw employees using large body grinders on heavy steel with no eye or ear protection, same for huge mills and lathes, painting without respirators, etc. I wore my sunglasses inside so I would have at least some eye protection I was so concerned. Let 'em laugh all the way to the eye doctor! In the US you can be either fired or put on disciplinary leave at some plants for not wearing eye and ear protection at all times in the factory.
Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:24 pm
So the consensis seems to be that there really is no logical or realistic business approach to a profit margin in the restoration of warbirds. profit can be made but the profit is relative to what one views as a "profit" .... if you are in the restoration business for profit above all else, you had better sit down and re-think your business plan. Of course, I'm sure there are a few shops out there that are the cream of the crop that are in high demand, who actually turn a modest profit, fighter rebuilders comes to mind, but again, it seems the warbird restoration industry as a whole is simply a labor of love. Which is fine, this simply creates works of art, as we have been seeing over the years in wonderful restorations. My problem with the whole warbird picture as a whole is that I don't like looking from outside the fence at all the lucky few who are inside the fence. Financially I suppose I could become a warbird owner of some sort, I've looked at the prospect many times, but I have never been able to commit to anything that seemed reasonable to me, or anyone else for that matter ... There is the SoCal wing of the CAF ... they're close. ... and they do have a HELLCAT ... lololol
My last comment here .... I take my hat off to all of you in the warbird restoration business, because of your committment and dedication and now that I have learned so much more, your sacrifice, I am able to spend so much time here on WIX talking about my absolute passion in this crazy life. For all these years I thought I was a very sick person for being so obsessed with warbirds. Now I knwo there's sicker people out there ... lololol ... I've finally come out of the closet ... lololol
My last comment here .... I take my hat off to all of you in the warbird restoration business, because of your committment and dedication and now that I have learned so much more, your sacrifice, I am able to spend so much time here on WIX talking about my absolute passion in this crazy life. For all these years I thought I was a very sick person for being so obsessed with warbirds. Now I knwo there's sicker people out there ... lololol ... I've finally come out of the closet ... lololol
Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:25 am
Gary hit a lot of the idiosyncrasies of our industry right on the head as several others have as well. I've been doing this for 20 years now and wouldn't trade any of it. This type of work takes a lot of dedication, tenacity and pure love of what you're doing. Having spent 12 or more years with Thorn building engines, one of his truism's was (and still is very much correct) "If it were easy--everyone would be doing it!" The rewards and self satisfaction can be extremely gratifying, but it's certainly not without cost somewhere along the way. How much free love can you stand?!?!?
Sparrow
Sparrow
Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:31 am
"My problem with the whole warbird picture as a whole is that I don't like looking from outside the fence at all the lucky few who are inside the fence."
So, go volunteer with SoCal!!!
Seriously, here's a really short background on me. USAF brat, dad was/is an aero engineer. He graduated from KentState at a time when they required aero engineers to have a private pilots licence (which is not a bad idea come to think of it!). So, I grew up around planes. Dad quit flying around the time I was born, simply from a lack of time. Grew up, started, ran, and sold a moderately successful landscaping business, then became a GM Master Auto Tech (with a college degree in it no less). Then, in 98 or so I went to an airshow at KHEF put on by the local CAF unit, and GEEZZUS I was hooked. The capper was when I got to talking to some folks and mentioned I was a car mechanic....their eyes lit up up, and next thing I knew someone snuck up behind me, snapped a set of leg irons on and threw an MEK soaked rag over my nose. Next thing I knew, I was up to my hips in used 60-weight, chained to the toolbox, twisting wrenches like Bruce Lee throwing side kicks.....
Well, kind of. I think what really impressed em was that this was Sunday afternoon and I hung around to help tear down the snow fence, put away the tables and emptied about a hundred trash drums. Basically, if anyone WANTS to be on the **INSIDE** of the "warbird movement" or whatever it's being called this week, here's the secret handshake....SHOW UP AND HELP!
Here it is, almost 10 years later. I've been signed off to go take my A&P tests, I own and fly a 1941 Piper J-5A (not quite a warbird but close enough). Oh yea, and I met the RedHead, my better half, at ground school in 2000 ish. I quite honestly owe so much of the good fortune in my life now to that danged airshow at Manassas, and my inability to *watch* someone else bust tushy cleaning up while I just stood by.
So, go volunteer with SoCal!!!
Seriously, here's a really short background on me. USAF brat, dad was/is an aero engineer. He graduated from KentState at a time when they required aero engineers to have a private pilots licence (which is not a bad idea come to think of it!). So, I grew up around planes. Dad quit flying around the time I was born, simply from a lack of time. Grew up, started, ran, and sold a moderately successful landscaping business, then became a GM Master Auto Tech (with a college degree in it no less). Then, in 98 or so I went to an airshow at KHEF put on by the local CAF unit, and GEEZZUS I was hooked. The capper was when I got to talking to some folks and mentioned I was a car mechanic....their eyes lit up up, and next thing I knew someone snuck up behind me, snapped a set of leg irons on and threw an MEK soaked rag over my nose. Next thing I knew, I was up to my hips in used 60-weight, chained to the toolbox, twisting wrenches like Bruce Lee throwing side kicks.....
Well, kind of. I think what really impressed em was that this was Sunday afternoon and I hung around to help tear down the snow fence, put away the tables and emptied about a hundred trash drums. Basically, if anyone WANTS to be on the **INSIDE** of the "warbird movement" or whatever it's being called this week, here's the secret handshake....SHOW UP AND HELP!
Here it is, almost 10 years later. I've been signed off to go take my A&P tests, I own and fly a 1941 Piper J-5A (not quite a warbird but close enough). Oh yea, and I met the RedHead, my better half, at ground school in 2000 ish. I quite honestly owe so much of the good fortune in my life now to that danged airshow at Manassas, and my inability to *watch* someone else bust tushy cleaning up while I just stood by.
Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:59 am
It's not that easy, I refuse to get involved with a group unless I can contribute ... I'm my way, not just dollars ... I want to be active, I can't do that right now, but if there were a reasonable way to become a part owner of a P-51 in my area, I would be the first in line. No disrespect to anyone out there ... it's just were I am I my world.
I guess I should explain the "outside the fence remark" ... that's only in my world. I'm upset at myself for not making a better effort to get "inside the fence" .... but maybe soon when my professional world slows down a bit. .... It's just me, didn't point that remark at anyone else ...
I guess I should explain the "outside the fence remark" ... that's only in my world. I'm upset at myself for not making a better effort to get "inside the fence" .... but maybe soon when my professional world slows down a bit. .... It's just me, didn't point that remark at anyone else ...
Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:30 am
Hellcat: The best way to get started is simply poke your head in, introduce yourself and see if there is something that you can do to be involved during the times you are available. I know of a couple of people that got their start by just stepping to help set up and teardown at an airshow. I got my start by just wandering up and asking if I could get involved. I got involved with Fox 51 just by wandering up to the hangar one afternoon while I was at home off of a road trip. I spent nearly 20 years doing work for Frank. That contact gave me a lot more experience with a/c from a simple KR-2 all the way up to doing some quick and dirty parts fabrication to help Fifi make a double show date one year.
It doesn't matter to most places as to how much time you have available, it's the fact that you care and do give of your time. Be it one hour every couple of weeks or 100 hours a month, anything helps and gets you closer to your dream. It takes making a move in the desired direction to make things happen. That first baby step leads to bigger and bigger things. Next thing you know, you'll be figuring out how to do more to get more and the disease will then be incurable!
Woulda, coulda, shoulda and 20-20 hindsight sure looks crappy on the tombstone.......
It doesn't matter to most places as to how much time you have available, it's the fact that you care and do give of your time. Be it one hour every couple of weeks or 100 hours a month, anything helps and gets you closer to your dream. It takes making a move in the desired direction to make things happen. That first baby step leads to bigger and bigger things. Next thing you know, you'll be figuring out how to do more to get more and the disease will then be incurable!
Woulda, coulda, shoulda and 20-20 hindsight sure looks crappy on the tombstone.......
Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:30 am
Hellcat: The best way to get started is simply poke your head in, introduce yourself and see if there is something that you can do to be involved during the times you are available. I know of a couple of people that got their start by just stepping to help set up and teardown at an airshow. I got my start by just wandering up and asking if I could get involved. I got involved with Fox 51 just by wandering up to the hangar one afternoon while I was at home off of a road trip. I spent nearly 20 years doing work for Frank. That contact gave me a lot more experience with a/c from a simple KR-2 all the way up to doing some quick and dirty parts fabrication to help Fifi make a double show date one year.
It doesn't matter to most places as to how much time you have available, it's the fact that you care and do give of your time. Be it one hour every couple of weeks or 100 hours a month, anything helps and gets you closer to your dream. It takes making a move in the desired direction to make things happen. That first baby step leads to bigger and bigger things. Next thing you know, you'll be figuring out how to do more to get more and the disease will then be incurable!
Woulda, coulda, shoulda and 20-20 hindsight sure looks crappy on the tombstone.......
It doesn't matter to most places as to how much time you have available, it's the fact that you care and do give of your time. Be it one hour every couple of weeks or 100 hours a month, anything helps and gets you closer to your dream. It takes making a move in the desired direction to make things happen. That first baby step leads to bigger and bigger things. Next thing you know, you'll be figuring out how to do more to get more and the disease will then be incurable!
Woulda, coulda, shoulda and 20-20 hindsight sure looks crappy on the tombstone.......
Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:03 pm
I understand what Hellcat is saying. The oft-given, just-poke-your-head-in advice is about as realistic as flapping your arms real hard and flying to the moon for many enthusiasts. It is viable if you have a particular lifestyle that many of us just don't.
August
August
Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:48 pm
Last time I was at the CAF in Mesa I almost became a member ! 
One gentleman noticed I kept coming back once or twice a year to the hangars and proposed it to me. I have to say I hesitated...
Well, there is quite a distance between Montreal and Mesa to begin with. But the offer really pleased me.
Just goes to say that if you want to get involved with any warbird place, I doubt hey would refuse any kind of help, however small it might be in your eyes
One gentleman noticed I kept coming back once or twice a year to the hangars and proposed it to me. I have to say I hesitated...
Well, there is quite a distance between Montreal and Mesa to begin with. But the offer really pleased me.
Just goes to say that if you want to get involved with any warbird place, I doubt hey would refuse any kind of help, however small it might be in your eyes
Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:11 pm
August: If you never take the time to go up and ask, the ticket to entry in the areana isn't going to just fall in your lap. When I first started to work for Frank, I never knew when I was going to be there. Combined with his flight schedule, it was sometimes 6 or 7 weeks between times that I got to work on something. After a couple of years, he knew me well enough that I was given keys to the hangar and there was always an ongoing list of things that needed to be done around there. Some I could accomplish without help, others required careful guidence and oversight. By the time he shut down the shop, I was trusted to do almost anything around the shop up to required inspections and signoffs.
There are plenty of opportunities out there, even with wacked schedules. It might take some hunting, a bunch of time and maybe a few doors closed in your face, but perseverence will get one closer to making it happen. Sitting back and saying it's impossible or improbable until I can do it completely on my terms, will never help you accomplish anything. Open the mind....find a way to make things happen.
There are plenty of opportunities out there, even with wacked schedules. It might take some hunting, a bunch of time and maybe a few doors closed in your face, but perseverence will get one closer to making it happen. Sitting back and saying it's impossible or improbable until I can do it completely on my terms, will never help you accomplish anything. Open the mind....find a way to make things happen.
Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:38 pm
That anyone-can-get-involved, just-poke-your-head-in kind of advice is just too facile. People have different lives and a lot of them make it look by comparison as if you must have had a lot of flexibility and time on your hands. We all have our different circumstances created by a combination of our own choices and the hand life deals us. Advice of the poke-your-head-in variety, given without any knowledge of someone's life circumstances, is useless and even a little insulting. You don't know whether the person holds down two jobs, has eight kids, and lives more than 500 miles from the nearest vintage aircraft. It really is impossible for a lot of buffs to get involved with warbirds in a way that is satisfying to them, and no amount of "Go get 'em, Tiger" can change that. And it is okay to express regret over this fact since, after all, nobody can do everything they want in life. Or even to observe that the warbird community might gain some useful labor and talent, not to mention look less exclusive and clubby, if it were more open to participation by those who can't make the commitments it currently requires.
August
August
Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:30 pm
Cvairwerks, don't count me out yet ... I'm a person who does my homework quite well, that's why I post threads like this one, so as to learn a little bit more each day, I learn first, act second, this approach has served me well over the years, but I'm also like most others, I'm impatient and want everything now. So I may complain about being on the outside looking in, but that's just me. I can complain with the best of em. I post this thread specifically to see what responses I would get from the poeple who know the warbird restoration world. If I had heard that this industry is a gold mine, I'd close up my Architectural firm and bust out to the airport to lease the largest hanger I could find. Them I would recruit a bunch of you guys to come restore everything we could get our hands on ... In otherwords, I'd do what probably all you would do. But I'm beginning to learn the harsh reality about the industry. It ain't bad, but it ain't good ...
The most rewarding accomplishment you could ever achieve in your life, besides health, family and faith, is to become financially successful in an endever that you have undivided passion for. This is my advise to myself everyday ..... Who knows, maybe someday I will get involved in the warbird world, for now, a few airshows a year and this crazy WIX site will have to do. .... and my little Cessna and globe swift flying. ...
The most rewarding accomplishment you could ever achieve in your life, besides health, family and faith, is to become financially successful in an endever that you have undivided passion for. This is my advise to myself everyday ..... Who knows, maybe someday I will get involved in the warbird world, for now, a few airshows a year and this crazy WIX site will have to do. .... and my little Cessna and globe swift flying. ...
Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:59 pm
Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:20 pm
Hellcat, and others: This is kind of in response to what y'all have posted, but yet NOT directed personally at any of you. Just more or less my opinions and observations.
An awful lot of folks have the mindset that "Well, I hate to volunteer since I have no skills (Doubtful!) or no money (That's OK, we'll take your sweat instead) or no time to show up.... The reality of life in a non-profit is that we are ALL in dire need of folks of all skill levels, and it really does NOT matter how much or how little time each can contribute. For example, in 2006, I logged over 1800 hours volunteering for National Capitol Squadron (and no that was not a misprint). Unfortunately, due to demands of my businesses, my 2007 numbers will be well below that, probably only around 300 hours. They haven't run me out of the Unit, or even griped at all. They know that as soon as I *can* devote more time, I will.
The same is true of our other members. We cherish each and every one, and the contribution of each one is of incomparable value. And, we have members like anyone else who NEVER show up, but send checks annually just to belong. Does not matter, they are just as important to fulfilling the mission as the folks who are at every work party.
If anyone reading this wants to be part of a warbird group, just come to a meeting, or an open hangar day, or whatever, and say that you are interested in helping. Even if you never know when you'll be able to help again, come on out...I can promise that you'll be welcome...
An awful lot of folks have the mindset that "Well, I hate to volunteer since I have no skills (Doubtful!) or no money (That's OK, we'll take your sweat instead) or no time to show up.... The reality of life in a non-profit is that we are ALL in dire need of folks of all skill levels, and it really does NOT matter how much or how little time each can contribute. For example, in 2006, I logged over 1800 hours volunteering for National Capitol Squadron (and no that was not a misprint). Unfortunately, due to demands of my businesses, my 2007 numbers will be well below that, probably only around 300 hours. They haven't run me out of the Unit, or even griped at all. They know that as soon as I *can* devote more time, I will.
The same is true of our other members. We cherish each and every one, and the contribution of each one is of incomparable value. And, we have members like anyone else who NEVER show up, but send checks annually just to belong. Does not matter, they are just as important to fulfilling the mission as the folks who are at every work party.
If anyone reading this wants to be part of a warbird group, just come to a meeting, or an open hangar day, or whatever, and say that you are interested in helping. Even if you never know when you'll be able to help again, come on out...I can promise that you'll be welcome...
Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:31 am
Sure August, I don't have a real clue how other people live. I just know that with the wacked schedule that I lead, I manage to average at least three to five hours a week to work on various aircraft projects. I do that despite being on the go between 19 and 20 hours a day, six and seven days a week, and have been doing that for the better part of the last eight years.
My day starts at 6:30, getting up and taking my seven year old into town to school. I get home from that between 8:30 and 9:30, depending on how many errands that need to be done while I am in town, or how much of the shopping I need to do. By the time I get home, the 15 month old is up and ready for his breakfast. I do that and take care of him until my wife can function, usually just before I leave for work. With her disabilities, it's almost always 4 am or later before she can get to sleep. I know it's going to be a really good day when she manages to get four hours of uninterrupted sleep. I get home from work about 1:30 in the morning and get some dinner and hit the bed about 2:30, assuming I don't have to work overtime, or we don't have a serious fire call for our department. And then it starts over four hours later. In those 5 hours or so between getting back from the school and going to work, I fit in doing most of the household chores that Val can't do, and as much of the yard work that I can, all the Dr. visits and lab trips for everyone...
Those hours I get to spend strictly on my projects....sometimes Saturday or Sunday nights after the kids are in bed, or maybe Sunday mornings right after breakfast if they manage to sleep late. All the other weekend time is for family stuff. Occasionally, the youngest is sufficiently entertaining himself that I do get a few minuets to work on a little research on the computer. Sure I struggle at times with everything going on and trying to juggle it all, but I keep on, because it's what we've been dealt and we do our best with it and strive to make our situation work the best way for us. Do I whine or feel bitter or depressed about how things are working out for us...nah, 'cause it takes too much energy and time. We count ourselves as lucky. There are other families out there in much worse shape than we are in.
Hellcat: No way would I count you out. Been there and done that with owning the company. We lost two companies and a heck of a lot of money and resources when Val became disabled.
Keep plugging away at the airshows, as that is one of the best places to get some face time and become recognized and making contacts in the warbird world. Making the big bucks shouldn't be the ultimate goal or sucess.....Making enough to do what you want to do and being happy and content at the same time is the true measure of success.
BTW, can I pm you about some generalized architectural services practices? Got some kinda weird questions for budgetary planning for some design services we are will be needing in the next year or so.
My day starts at 6:30, getting up and taking my seven year old into town to school. I get home from that between 8:30 and 9:30, depending on how many errands that need to be done while I am in town, or how much of the shopping I need to do. By the time I get home, the 15 month old is up and ready for his breakfast. I do that and take care of him until my wife can function, usually just before I leave for work. With her disabilities, it's almost always 4 am or later before she can get to sleep. I know it's going to be a really good day when she manages to get four hours of uninterrupted sleep. I get home from work about 1:30 in the morning and get some dinner and hit the bed about 2:30, assuming I don't have to work overtime, or we don't have a serious fire call for our department. And then it starts over four hours later. In those 5 hours or so between getting back from the school and going to work, I fit in doing most of the household chores that Val can't do, and as much of the yard work that I can, all the Dr. visits and lab trips for everyone...
Those hours I get to spend strictly on my projects....sometimes Saturday or Sunday nights after the kids are in bed, or maybe Sunday mornings right after breakfast if they manage to sleep late. All the other weekend time is for family stuff. Occasionally, the youngest is sufficiently entertaining himself that I do get a few minuets to work on a little research on the computer. Sure I struggle at times with everything going on and trying to juggle it all, but I keep on, because it's what we've been dealt and we do our best with it and strive to make our situation work the best way for us. Do I whine or feel bitter or depressed about how things are working out for us...nah, 'cause it takes too much energy and time. We count ourselves as lucky. There are other families out there in much worse shape than we are in.
Hellcat: No way would I count you out. Been there and done that with owning the company. We lost two companies and a heck of a lot of money and resources when Val became disabled.
Keep plugging away at the airshows, as that is one of the best places to get some face time and become recognized and making contacts in the warbird world. Making the big bucks shouldn't be the ultimate goal or sucess.....Making enough to do what you want to do and being happy and content at the same time is the true measure of success.
BTW, can I pm you about some generalized architectural services practices? Got some kinda weird questions for budgetary planning for some design services we are will be needing in the next year or so.