Warbird Information Exchange

While I love the idea of seeing a Tiffie in the air again (such an incredible brute of a bird!) I have to agree, without a Napier Sabre it just wouldn't be the same. Sadly for the Warbird community, the Typhoon is one of those planes that is so defined by its engine that it just wouldn't be a Tiffie without one.

And there's certainly no need for any insults..it was a legitimate question. Some of the greatest acheivements in history have started out with what sounded like a crazy pie-in-the-sky idea!

I didn't know the museum in Ottawa had a Sabre until I visited last summer. I knew what it was the minute I saw it, and as I drooled I though "God, I'd love to hear that monster fire up just once!" (no pun intended!)


SN

They never did quite fix the slight problem with the tails falling off, though,and ended up with strenthening plates being rivetted on the rear fuselage to beef up the structure, but, as I said, never really solved the fundemental flaw that caused the back ends to fall off in flight.

Still, as you say, d@mn good aeroplane.

Again, it comes down to money. I think we can all agree that with proper financial backing there wouldn't be too much of a problem getting two Sabres running for a flyable Typhoon. Even if there were only sectioned engines available as a source of parts & templates it still could be done, especially with the advancements in computer design technology, rapid prototyping etc. Expensive, yes; impossible, no.

If I read on here tomorrow that Paul Allen was intending to restore & fly a Typhoon using an original engine I would have no problem believing it. In fact, the thought of getting a Sabre or two airborne is, in my opinion, less far-fetched than rebuilding Jumo turbojets with modern machining & metals, and from what I can gather this is a project that is actively being worked on.

So as always, its a question of interest & $$$$, plain & simple.

cheers

gv

The tail problem was solved, which is why the Sabre powered Tempest 5 & 6 did not required the plates and didn't have a seperation issue. The late Typhoons and Tempest 5 & 6's share the same fuselage aft of the cockpit (and larger span tailplanes & elevators) - don't be fooled by the different shape fin, the extra bit is just a fairing.

George

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BURMA! Sorry, I panicked

Yes thats true, but the one major difference between Tiffy and Tempest was the Typhoon had a large wing root, I think 5 or 6 inches thicker than Tempest, I believe this was due to the CG issues with the weight of that huge Sabre engine and also the initial design had 6 MG's per wing. The unique sound of the Sabre is also the dead giveaway that it's a Tiffy. Ya gotta have a Sabre in it or it just ain't the deal.

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tracers work both ways

Ok in engineering terms,the fuse is doable,wings doable and tail,undercart,hydraulics etc.A sugar hot engineer using a high dollar design program like Catia will have an engine design done within a year if let loose on an original.Then to find a foundry with the expertise to caste new blocks,heads,cam and crank forgings,conrods,timing gears.Pistons can be remade as can valves.Carbies might still be around.Auxiliaries can be hunted down.Depends who has the biggest check book.Top fuel motors are hand built and some small aircraft engines (ie the Jabiru)are CNC made.
Oops the webpage is here.. http://www.hawkertempest.se/sound.htm

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Those who think it,s impossible should leave the ones doing it alone..
http://www.spitfireprojecta58-27.com/

Actually Rossco, If one could gain access to even a cut-away Sabre and one complete cylider bank, it could be duplicated in something like SolidWorks by a good operator in a couple of months. From there, export as an IGES file to a stereo lithography unit and have mold ready prototypes within days instead of weeks. Then it's just finding someone that is capable of doing the short run of castings. With careful coordination, individual parts could be split out to several CAD guys and the process sped up considerably. Having the cranks, rods, heads, cylinders and cams made is more a matter of finding a shop willing to do the work. I know a guy that can make the pistons and rings

I know from experience that reverse engineering from known correct parts can go pretty fast if the operators have good CAD skills. I used to do a lot of contract work moving drawings from velum to CAD via scanning and cleaning up. For a lot of them it was faster to draw from scratch than fix the scanner induced problems. We found, doing X-ray and CT scan tubes that a good driver could reproduce an entire drawing set for a particular tube in a couple of weeks of steady work.

The absolute biggest hangup would be finding a S-L unit big enough to handle the parts and not eat your entire budget up making them.

All very well in theory, but Sabres were extremely tempramental beasts at the best of times when in service. With a reverse-engineered engine, and without the skills and knowledge gained by practical operation of them in the 1940s, I'd say it would be well nigh impossible to keep one running.

As far as I know the sleeve valves can't be remanufactured. Napier had enough of a problem in the early days and if I remember correctly Bristol were ordered to share their manufacturing technique for spining the sleeves. Being realistic I can't see an airworthy Napier Sabre being built.

It would at least be cool to see a static one built.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Director

Bristol saved the engine due to someone paying close attention to the parts and realizing that the sleeves from the Armstrong engine could be machined a little more and work on the Sabre.
If it's been manufactured before, it can be done again...There have been considerable improvements in both lubrication and high temp materials as well as fabrication processes that could alleviate most of the tempermental problems with the sleeve valve system. Only problem is how much $'s it would take. By utilizing the advances in materials from both jet engines and racing motors, it could be done and made to work well I belive.

Anyone got the scratch to invest?

Engineering developments such as this can be supported if there are plenty of units to spread the R&D cost around. This isn't the case with Napier Sabres, Bristol Hercules or Centaurus engines so whilst it's theoretically possible it's unlikely.

I'm not too worried about the question being silly about getting a Typhoon in the air, after all, If some folks can dig a P-38 out of the ice and spend roughly ten million to restore it to airworthyness, then maybe there's someone out there that would have the same vision with a Typhoon. You never know. Just $$$, and you can't take it with you when your gone .... Sabre engines were built once, a Sabre can be built again. I should know, I've had several things re-built in my day that no one thought could be re-built, I won't get into it ... too much $$$ ... ouch.

Without researching the question, how long did Typhoons serve during the war? I don't really remember Typhoons being used extensively until D-Day and shortly after. One of the prettiest airplanes with invasion stripes I've seen.

The Centaurus fitted to the Tempest II is different to the Sea Fury unit - back in 1992 the sleeve valves could be made - the cost was large but it could be done.

Hiya Cvairwerks.I agree mate,we use 3D design software (ProD and some Solid) to do the majority of our project (click on sig).Beauty of it all now is,it,s faster,more available,easy to edit,more usable,and darn more fun these days.A design can be sent IGES via email across the world where it can be viewed instantly.Plus the costs of 3D printers is coming down so parts can be prototyped quicker and cheaper,ideal for casting Masters.
A ground run Tiffie or Tempest will be my wish and all the "bugs" in the original design could be found and squashed easier in the computer.As you say it all comes down to the moolah..

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Those who think it,s impossible should leave the ones doing it alone..
http://www.spitfireprojecta58-27.com/