Warbird rides?

[coastdef]

We are based at the former Frederick Army Air Field (now Frederick Municipal Airport) just outside of Frederick, Oklahoma (3 hours northwest of Dallas/Fort Worth, 2 hours southwest of Oklahoma City). The headquarters is located in the former sub-depot, the only remaining WWII buildings at the airfield.

Regards,

Andy

Where are you guys located?

[b29driver]

The WWII Airborne Demonstration Team offers C-47 flights complete with an actual static line parachute jump as part of our "Airborne Experience".

More information at:

http://www.wwiiadt.com/Airborne%20Exper ... rience.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43u0SKV6C68

Regards,

Andy

Where are you guys located?

I'm building a web site for nostalgia activities, http://goodolddaysandmore.googlepages.com/home , and have a section already on biplane rides. I'd like to do a section on warbird rides also, what are some good websites to link to for this? I know about Collings Foundation, and EAA's B-17, but there must be a number of T-6 and other warbird ride operations out there. Can you buy rides in some of the Planes of Fame aircraft?

Ideas for trains, boats, etc. also welcome....

They get to point of jumping, but they don't. That part is not allowed.

[coastdef]

The WWII Airborne Demonstration Team offers C-47 flights complete with an actual static line parachute jump as part of our "Airborne Experience".

More information at:

http://www.wwiiadt.com/Airborne%20Exper ... rience.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43u0SKV6C68

Regards,

Andy

Where are you guys located?

I'm building a web site for nostalgia activities, http://goodolddaysandmore.googlepages.com/home , and have a section already on biplane rides. I'd like to do a section on warbird rides also, what are some good websites to link to for this? I know about Collings Foundation, and EAA's B-17, but there must be a number of T-6 and other warbird ride operations out there. Can you buy rides in some of the Planes of Fame aircraft?

Ideas for trains, boats, etc. also welcome....

They get to point of jumping, but they don't. That part is not allowed.

B29driver, that information is not correct; perhaps you are thinking of the group in New York that does the rides, but no actual jumps. We are an Oklahoma based group, and team members do demonstrate actual static line parachute jumps as part of the "Airborne Experience". Please see the website links listed above for more information. the main website is:

www.wwiiadt.org

Regards,

Andy

[b29driver]

The WWII Airborne Demonstration Team offers C-47 flights complete with an actual static line parachute jump as part of our "Airborne Experience".

More information at:

http://www.wwiiadt.com/Airborne%20Exper ... rience.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43u0SKV6C68

Regards,

Andy

Where are you guys located?

I'm building a web site for nostalgia activities, http://goodolddaysandmore.googlepages.com/home , and have a section already on biplane rides. I'd like to do a section on warbird rides also, what are some good websites to link to for this? I know about Collings Foundation, and EAA's B-17, but there must be a number of T-6 and other warbird ride operations out there. Can you buy rides in some of the Planes of Fame aircraft?

Ideas for trains, boats, etc. also welcome....

They get to point of jumping, but they don't. That part is not allowed.

B29driver, that information is not correct; perhaps you are thinking of the group in New York that does the rides, but no actual jumps. We are an Oklahoma based group, and team members do demonstrate actual static line parachute jumps as part of the "Airborne Experience". Please see the website links listed above for more information. the main website is:

www.wwiiadt.org

Regards,

Andy

Sorry,
When I read it I I didn't study it close enough. I got the impression that someone was saying that rides could be bought that included a static line jump. Obviously that can't be done. Are you saying that you sell passenger rides during an actual static line jump by some of your team members? I would have thought that insurance and FAA would not allow that.

[coastdef]

No problem; my post wasn't entirely clear . To clarify, for a donation, you can participate in our "Airborne Experience"; this is a C-47 flight where our team members will make a static line parachute jump. Folks who wish to actually jump can attend our 9 day long jump school and jump, but that goes in a different category altogether.

Regards,

Andy

The WWII Airborne Demonstration Team offers C-47 flights complete with an actual static line parachute jump as part of our "Airborne Experience".

More information at:

http://www.wwiiadt.com/Airborne%20Exper ... rience.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43u0SKV6C68

Regards,

Andy

Where are you guys located?

I'm building a web site for nostalgia activities, http://goodolddaysandmore.googlepages.com/home , and have a section already on biplane rides. I'd like to do a section on warbird rides also, what are some good websites to link to for this? I know about Collings Foundation, and EAA's B-17, but there must be a number of T-6 and other warbird ride operations out there. Can you buy rides in some of the Planes of Fame aircraft?

Ideas for trains, boats, etc. also welcome....

They get to point of jumping, but they don't. That part is not allowed.

B29driver, that information is not correct; perhaps you are thinking of the group in New York that does the rides, but no actual jumps. We are an Oklahoma based group, and team members do demonstrate actual static line parachute jumps as part of the "Airborne Experience". Please see the website links listed above for more information. the main website is:

www.wwiiadt.org

Regards,

Andy

Sorry,
When I read it I I didn't study it close enough. I got the impression that someone was saying that rides could be bought that included a static line jump. Obviously that can't be done. Are you saying that you sell passenger rides during an actual static line jump by some of your team members? I would have thought that insurance and FAA would not allow that.

[GauntletWarbirds]

Gauntlet Warbirds also offers training and rides in our T-6 at ARR just west of Chicago, in addition to training in our Decathlons, Extra 300 and L-29.

Greg

[uh1h430]

You can buy a ride on a war bird if the airplane has its paper work done with the FAA not sure what paper work that would be but I know its there.

Some years ago I’m going to guess 10 to 15 years ago bout the same time that the battle over the B17 wing bolts and the almost but never issued AD on them.

The FAA shut down all the B17s 24s and all the other rides down over the FAR part 135 (I think its part 135). So the 17 guys all got together museums and all hired a airplane mouth piece and after a year of work and fighting with FAA and a pile of paper 6 inches thick the rides were allowed again.

A join our organization and get a ride was a problem back then. It maybe still. At Air Heritage we had our own rule that only members could fly or ride on our airplanes.

So I would say to go to the FAA site and read the part 135 FAR and look for that war bird ride FAR or call the local FAA guys and find what FAR it is.

What 135 says in short is any airplane for hire is under 135 and a ride means just that.

[CAPFlyer]

What 135 says in short is any airplane for hire is under 135 and a ride means just that.

For Hire can be conducted under part 91, 119, 125, 135, and 136. Warbird rides for hire can be conducted under part 91, 125, and 135. I've seen legal warbird for hire programs under all 3 categories of operations. Most operators choose to operate under Part 91 as their insurance won't let them fly more than 20 passengers. Under part 91, the specific portions are 91.146 and 91.147 (copied below).

§ 91.146 Passenger-carrying flights for the benefit of a charitable, nonprofit, or community event.


(a) Definitions. For purposes of this section, the following definitions apply:

Charitable event means an event that raises funds for the benefit of a charitable organization recognized by the Department of the Treasury whose donors may deduct contributions under section 170 of the Internal Revenue Code (26 U.S.C. Section 170).

Community event means an event that raises funds for the benefit of any local or community cause that is not a charitable event or non-profit event.

Non-profit event means an event that raises funds for the benefit of a non-profit organization recognized under State or Federal law, as long as one of the organization's purposes is the promotion of aviation safety.

(b) Passenger carrying flights for the benefit of a charitable, nonprofit, or community event identified in paragraph (c) of this section are not subject to the certification requirements of part 119 or the drug and alcohol testing requirements in part 121, appendices I and J, of this chapter, provided the following conditions are satisfied and the limitations in paragraphs (c) and (d) are not exceeded:

(1) The flight is nonstop and begins and ends at the same airport and is conducted within a 25-statute mile radius of that airport;

(2) The flight is conducted from a public airport that is adequate for the airplane or helicopter used, or from another location the FAA approves for the operation;

(3) The airplane or helicopter has a maximum of 30 seats, excluding each crewmember seat, and a maximum payload capacity of 7,500 pounds;

(4) The flight is not an aerobatic or a formation flight;

(5) Each airplane or helicopter holds a standard airworthiness certificate, is airworthy, and is operated in compliance with the applicable requirements of subpart E of this part;

(6) Each flight is made during day VFR conditions;

(7) Reimbursement of the operator of the airplane or helicopter is limited to that portion of the passenger payment for the flight that does not exceed the pro rata cost of owning, operating, and maintaining the aircraft for that flight, which may include fuel, oil, airport expenditures, and rental fees;

(8) The beneficiary of the funds raised is not in the business of transportation by air;

(9) A private pilot acting as pilot in command has at least 500 hours of flight time;

(10) Each flight is conducted in accordance with the safety provisions of part 136, subpart A of this chapter; and

(11) Flights are not conducted over a national park, unit of a national park, or abutting tribal lands, unless the operator has secured a letter of agreement from the FAA, as specified under subpart B of part 136 of this chapter, and is operating in accordance with that agreement during the flights.

(c) (1) Passenger-carrying flights or series of flights are limited to a total of four charitable events or non-profit events per year, with no event lasting more than three consecutive days.

(2) Passenger-carrying flights or series of flights are limited to one community event per year, with no event lasting more than three consecutive days.

(d) Pilots and sponsors of events described in this section are limited to no more than 4 events per calendar year.

(e) At least seven days before the event, each sponsor of an event described in this section must furnish to the FAA Flight Standards District Office with jurisdiction over the geographical area where the event is scheduled:

(1) A signed letter detailing the name of the sponsor, the purpose of the event, the date and time of the event, the location of the event, all prior events under this section participated in by the sponsor in the current calendar year;

(2) A photocopy of each pilot in command's pilot certificate, medical certificate, and logbook entries that show the pilot is current in accordance with §§61.56 and 61.57 of this chapter and that any private pilot has at least 500 hours of flight time; and

(3) A signed statement from each pilot that lists all prior events under this section in which the pilot has participated during the current calendar year.

[Doc. No. FAA–1998–4521, 72 FR 6910, Feb. 13, 2007]

§ 91.147 Passenger carrying flights for compensation or hire.


Each Operator conducting passenger-carrying flights for compensation or hire must meet the following requirements unless all flights are conducted under §91.146.

(a) For the purposes of this section and for drug and alcohol testing, Operator means any person conducting nonstop passenger-carrying flights in an airplane or helicopter for compensation or hire in accordance with §§119.1(e)(2), 135.1(a)(5), or 121.1(d), of this chapter that begin and end at the same airport and are conducted within a 25-statute mile radius of that airport.

(b) An Operator must comply with the safety provisions of part 136, subpart A of this chapter, and apply for and receive a Letter of Authorization from the Flight Standards District Office nearest to its principal place of business by September 11, 2007.

(c) Each application for a Letter of Authorization must include the following information:

(1) Name of Operator, agent, and any d/b/a (doing-business-as) under which that Operator does business;

(2) Principal business address and mailing address;

(3) Principal place of business (if different from business address);

(4) Name of person responsible for management of the business;

(5) Name of person responsible for aircraft maintenance;

(6) Type of aircraft, registration number(s), and make/model/series; and

(7) An Antidrug and Alcohol Misuse Prevention Program registration.

(d) The Operator must register and implement its drug and alcohol testing programs in accordance with part 121, appendices I and J, of this chapter.

(e) The Operator must comply with the provisions of the Letter of Authorization received.

[Doc. No. FAA–1998–4521, 72 FR 6911, Feb. 13, 2007]

[Pilotgrl24]

Mid-Atlantic Air Musuem offers rides in the T-6 and Stearman

http://www.maam.org/rides.html

[warbird1]

(1) The flight is nonstop and begins and ends at the same airport and is conducted within a 25-statute mile radius of that airport;

(3) The airplane or helicopter has a maximum of 30 seats, excluding each crewmember seat, and a maximum payload capacity of 7,500 pounds;

(11) Flights are not conducted over a national park, unit of a national park, or abutting tribal lands, unless the operator has secured a letter of agreement from the FAA, as specified under subpart B of part 136 of this chapter, and is operating in accordance with that agreement during the flights.

(c) (1) Passenger-carrying flights or series of flights are limited to a total of four charitable events or non-profit events per year, with no event lasting more than three consecutive days.

(2) Passenger-carrying flights or series of flights are limited to one community event per year, with no event lasting more than three consecutive days.

(d) Pilots and sponsors of events described in this section are limited to no more than 4 events per calendar year.

Thanks for the link, CAPFlyer. I've never bothered looking up that aspect of Part 91. Those ones I posted above seem the most troublesome. Obviously the Collings foundation could not possibly comply with this. What part does Collings and the rest of the B-17 operators use? What about the CAF?

The National Parks overflight seems extremely unforgiving. I don't understand this restriction. It does not impose any altitude on the overflight, so it would seem to mean that overflying ANY park at ANY altitude would be considered a violation. From the National Park Service website it states:

The National Park System comprises 391 areas covering more than 84 million acres in every state (except Delaware), the District of Columbia, American Samoa, Guam, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands. These areas include national parks, monuments, battlefields, military parks, historical parks, historic sites, lakeshores, seashores, recreation areas, scenic rivers and trails, and the White House.

There are so many National parks in the United States, that in some areas, it would be very difficult NOT to fly over some kind of park. This rule specifically seems very assonine to me. Can someone explain the logic behind this to me?

So, with Part 91 being extremely restrictive, I guess the major operators like Collings Foundation, EAA, Liberty Belle, CAF, etc. use Part 135. Can anyone associated with these organizations give some insight on how they operate and some of the pitfalls and restrictions they have to deal with?

[CAPFlyer]

Actually, the CAF has a Part 125 certificate for its larger aircraft that are certified under the standard category. The rest are operated under Part 91 with FAA Letters of Exception where required. Can't say for other groups.

One other thing to remember is that to operate under Part 135, you technically have to start an airline and operate under an Airline Operating Certificate with an Airline Operations Manual.

Also, all aircraft operating under all provisions EXCEPT Part 91, the aircraft has to be in certified in the "Standard" category. No "Experimental", "Limited", or "Restricted" aircraft are allowed in this category of operations, so all the fighters and most of the bombers are excluded.

BTW, if you want to look at the regs in depth, the FAA has (helpfully) put them online for all to view and read - http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/te ... tab_02.tpl

Last edited by CAPFlyer on Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[CAPFlyer]

Also, I forgot, Part 91 states that the number of seats cannot exceed 30 *OR* have a payload of greater that 6000 pounds. The key to this is that as the aircraft are being used for carriage of passengers, as long as they don't have more than 30 seats installed (not capable of seating more than 30, very fine distinction there), then they are legal to operate under part 91.

Also, with Part 135 and Part 121 operations, you have to have very comprehensive and high standards for operations and you must comply with airline requirements as far as cabin crew and flight crew (i.e. you can't fly a fighter under 135 or 121 as they both require at least 2-crew operation).

[RuudLeeuw]

Last May I visited Minter Field, near Shafter,CA
Saw people working on a T-6
Pics on my webpage http://www.ruudleeuw.com/usa08-shafter.htm
The guy I talked to was Kevin Kegin of Gaillard Aviation
He told me they did rides in their T-6's; not sure if they tour air shows or do these rides from Minter Field.
Haven't looked for a website but perhaps this rings a bell with others more in the know..?
B/rgds
Rudi

[RuudLeeuw]

Took a great ride in a biplane at Sedona,AZ last May.
http://www.sedonaairtours.com/
The WACO biplane is not exactly vintage (manufactured 1997) but does look that way and the open cockpit certainly adds to the feel of old days...
Rudi

[warbird1]

Thanks for the info, Capflyer.