I think I am losing my mind...

[n5151ts]

At Reno this year I started paying closer attention to them. They seem to have some pretty good and stable flight characteristics.

Then you must have been watching a different race from many of the rest of us!

My dad just sold his L-29 to Pete Taylor. They are re-engining it to fly it at Reno.

Does anyone seriously believe that we'll ever see the jets racing at Reno again?

I watched them from the ramp....In other words dont start fights with posts like that....

Last edited by n5151ts on Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[muddyboots]

I dunno. If a T33 crashed into a crowd, killing 150+ people as it tumbled along, you don't think the feds would start getting nervous?
I sort of agree with Bill. When there were all those crashes earlier in the year, I noted that it wouldn't take too many more before the feds shut down the races. I still feel that way.

It is sad but true: As in the Roman Republic, the masses rule. Scare them bad enough and they'll do just about anything. And with journalisms tell all-sell all attitude, you can bet they will sensationalize the tar out of a nice firey jet crash, with dozens burnt beyond recogniztion, disemboweled and dismembered. Just think of the front page photos THAT would make

[n5151ts]

I dunno. If a T33 crashed into a crowd, killing 150+ people as it tumbled along, you don't think the feds would start getting nervous?
I sort of agree with Bill. When there were all those crashes earlier in the year, I noted that it wouldn't take too many more before the feds shut down the races. I still feel that way.

It is sad but true: As in the Roman Republic, the masses rule. Scare them bad enough and they'll do just about anything. And with journalisms tell all-sell all attitude, you can bet they will sensationalize the tar out of a nice firey jet crash, with dozens burnt beyond recogniztion, disemboweled and dismembered. Just think of the front page photos THAT would make

the point is it could happen at any time with any class so I guess we just ban the races then. the ONLY thing that kept people from that fate in the formula 1 crash this year is the fact that they put 2 concrete road barriers out there that the judges could dive behind. one of them had his hat taken off by a landing gear....Ill bet hes happy about not being 2 inches taller now!

[mustangdriver]

I dunno. If a T33 crashed into a crowd, killing 150+ people as it tumbled along, you don't think the feds would start getting nervous?
I sort of agree with Bill. When there were all those crashes earlier in the year, I noted that it wouldn't take too many more before the feds shut down the races. I still feel that way.

It is sad but true: As in the Roman Republic, the masses rule. Scare them bad enough and they'll do just about anything. And with journalisms tell all-sell all attitude, you can bet they will sensationalize the tar out of a nice firey jet crash, with dozens burnt beyond recogniztion, disemboweled and dismembered. Just think of the front page photos THAT would make

They still make the Airbuss don't they?

[n5151ts]

They still make the Airbuss don't they?

I cant begin to imagine what it will be like when the first one of those big honkers goes down...and it WILL happen

[JDK]

Interesting discussion.

No one owning up to having an L-29?

At Reno this year I started paying closer attention to them. They seem to have some pretty good and stable flight characteristics.

Then you must have been watching a different race from many of the rest of us!

My dad just sold his L-29 to Pete Taylor. They are re-engining it to fly it at Reno.

Does anyone seriously believe that we'll ever see the jets racing at Reno again?

we have lost several WWII aircraft over the years and at least one very complex purpose bilt UNLIMITED and yet we still do it.
Like it or not jets are all some of the folks come to see, and as far as that goes its all they know about. They are typically the younger group and they have no knowledge of what their grandfather did in WW II.... That being said, MANY of them come to see the jets but then also get exposed to the "big Iron" and get excited enough to start learning history. Some of them might even start respecting their elders a bit more and realize that the world is the way it is because their then 19 year old grandpa did indeed fly a B-17 into harms way.

</climbs down off of soap boX>

Excellent post. It's easy to forget most of us roll up to our first airshow for a quick thrill. (Well, you know...) From the first occasions, we tend to broaden or deepen our interests in particular areas. (Or decide the opposite gender's interest is obtainable. )

I've had numerous conversations with people who think the <insert brand here> jet fighter is the greatest thing ever and way cool/awesome/made them dribble whatever. Some move on; other are lucky enough to be next to a veteran chatting to an owner, and that's a major way of getting a crash-course in history and bravery.

I was interested in the aircraft as a kid, learned about them, and as I got older my respect for the men (and women) who flew and maintained these aircraft developed. Today I'm interested in the forgotten types, and the veterans who have to explain the type they flew to an essentially ignorant world. And a Merlin-powered flyby or a Dak grumbling over is nice too.

Quote, "racing is dangerous". Sure, whether it is Reno or Indy. Maybe even the tiger act in the casino. But the danger should be for the participants, not the public who did not agree to risk their life. The planes should stay on the course, the cars on the track, and the tigers stay out of the crowd. We have had a great record of spectator safety over 45 years at airshows. If you do not care about the public, then maybe you care about the future of the races. If a jet goes into the crowd, I don't think the public or the feds are going to have a callous or blase attitude about public safety. There won't be any more races like that.

We are always one major crowd-side accident away from the vintage aviation business getting seriously cramped; yes, even in America.

Mom, pop and the kids might turn up to see an "awsome airplane crash" (and we forget that is sadly one of the attractions for some) but they don't expect to be part of the act when they pay for their tix. Most air forces realise this, and any airshow act needs to know it too. Part of the public-showman deal is you aren't allowed to trash the audience.

They still make the Airbuss don't they?

I cant begin to imagine what it will be like when the first one of those big honkers goes down...and it WILL happen

Lots of people dead.

The key word is momentum. Whatever happens, the airline business isn't going to get shut down because of an accident. It's too big and it's got too much momentum. It might become very unprofitable because of a downturn as the result of an accident, which is the main reason the airlines care some for your safety - that's their profit margin. I think we've seen a big case study about how robust the business is though.

The same doesn't apply to vintage aviation anywhere. It's too small, and if someone gets their warbird's momentum wrong and dumps it in the crowd, there's no need to keep airshows. Places in Europe have lost the airshow business because of this scenario; and the UK is well aware that's an unacceptable risk. America might be different - but it's not one to test, and even if you want to, killing your audience is dumb. Don't kid yourself the Prez will let you continue to play with those 'ex-military killing machines' if the public's decided 'you're dangerous'. "We're sorry about the fiery crash that looks more impressive than X-Box on TV"* isn't a strong lobby position.

Fly safe and don't mash the crowd now, or you'll be flying in such a tight box (if at all) that it won't be fun for anyone.

Just, of course, my opinion.

I will meet you on the green, pistols or sabres the choice is yours!

CAC, Canadair or the vanilla North American Sabre?

Regards,

* (And, please, note the quotes - not MY views, just a mild version of how it plays on CNN.)

[n5151ts]

sorry but my familiarity is with the RF4-c phantom II so pistols it is...oh wait you can't own pistols can you. those are restricted to the criminals down there!

[T33driver]

T33 Paul, just out of curiosity, did you ever spend any time at Laughlin AFB?

thankfully no

[JDK]

so pistols it is...oh wait you can't own pistols can you. those are restricted to the criminals down there!

Very good.

Tell you what, you come on over with your pistol, and I'll promise to visit you in prison, where we pop the criminals. By the way, it's kinda nice wandering the streets unarmed, with a full drink.

Alternatively, I'd be happy to arrange for you to be run down by the RAAF Museum's 'murdered 'Toom. (Kindly donated by the NMUSAF)



The museum doesn't just eviscerate secondhand aircraft, we dust them, and we fly some.

Do remind me. How many Mustangs does the NMUSAF operate?





Sorry, your link appears to be broken.

[n5151ts]

humm......looks like violent crime is UP..of course im making up the stats...oh wait...its your published stats.....hummm

http://www.aic.gov.au/stats/crime/violence.html

ps
the end

[JDK]

ps
the end

How sweet. Someone's got a lot to learn about forums...

I'm impressed you bothered to look up the stats. Check out the gun accident stats btw, or the unreported gun crime. The armed bears discussion's been run here a few times - let's just accept your way works for you, and you aren't going to convince me.

The forums interesting when you've earned respect - when BDK (for instance) argues, I listen, because he's not rude, and can put together an argument all by himself ~ wait, no, it's because he's a pilot. Silly me. Likewise Randy Haskin, I might disagree with, but he's certainly changed my opinion on occasion - but the force of his argument, and his ability to remain polite - mostly; not his way-cool jet.

Stop trying to rubbish people who disagree with you, avoiding any questions and instead feel free to contribute.

So - What's your interest in warbirds?

Last edited by JDK on Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Mike]

give me a break there Bill....thats classic sensationalist journalism if I have ever seen it.

Sounded like a perfectly reasonable set of questions to me.

Bill, the fastest jet (a T-33) qualified at over 525mph this year, several others were at over the 500 mark. My concerns are based on a combination of the speeds, the sight of the 'gaggle' coming off the last turn of the first lap in the Thurdsay Gold heat this year, with several aircraft either clearly out of or only under marginal control whilst pointing directly at the public areas, and the length of the debris field from the accident.

I would also argue that Reno doesn't NEED the jets. They are a relatively minor act compared with the Unlimiteds, don't have the identity and team 'fan following' of such as Strega or Rare Bear, and are an unnecessary risk. Park 'em, let the military demo teams provide the fast and noisy jet 'fix' for those that come for that sort of thing, and go back to what Reno does best. As has been proven this year, racing is dangerous enough without the added risk factor of the jets.

[Bill Greenwood]

Mike, thanks I didn't know they even had T-33s at Reno. Do they race in their own class or with the L-39s? I have not been to Reno in years. What is the fastest L-39 speed, I thought they were about 480 or so? What ever it takes they need to preclude a disaster into the crowd. I am not really a jet fan because of the noise, mostly. But I hate to exclude or limit part of aviation. Maybe there is some other location with more room that is better for them to race at, or a different course layout at Reno if possible. And your comment of "racing is dangerous enough" is all too true. I have lost 2 friends at Reno, maybe more if I stopped to think about it. I think that is one of the reasons I haven't gone in years. And don't worry about guys with rude answers, I am pretty much used to it on WIX. They are not used to questions, since they already know it all. And I think there is a gap when it comes to safety issues, some people really care about it, and some people just look the other way and accept accidents as inevitable, and to some extent they have a valid point. There's a lot of ghosts at Reno.

[rwdfresno]

What is the fastest L-39 speed, I thought they were about 480 or so?

Bill the high end of the jets are racing in the 480s while the unlimiteds are in the 380s. I certainly think a new field layout out for the jets could improve crowd safety. There were crowd safety concerns in the past with field layouts for other races and it is a matter of working out something that is safer. I think people that make broad sweeping statements that "JETS ARE DANGEROUS" are sensationalists and closed minded. Air racing is dangerous true and certainly you want to take as many precautions as necessary to have a "reasonable" amount of presumed safety for pilots and even more so the spectators however there is no reason why racing unlimited is any safer than racing jets. Be it a new venue or new layout the jets will race somewhere as they should. Quite frankly I wouldn't be too surprised if racing left the current Reno venue in our lifetimes due to urban pressures.

[n5151ts]

Stop trying to rubbish people who disagree with you, avoiding any questions

you brought up the gun subject cowboy not me...I simply responded to your RUBBISH

pistols or swords is a humorous comment made to an air force puk...er pilot as there is a time honored friendly rivalry between the air force and navy types. and either one would risk their life to save the other in combat.
you need some (perhaps a lot) more edumakation. you are obviously bright but equally obvious you THINK you are intelligent ..you need some more LIFE HOURS on your air frame before you go attacking folks when you are cornered. congrats for making my DO NOT RESPOND TO LIST!