Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:55 am
So they're gonna wait until Spring of 08 to pull her out?
What are they doing the meantime to safeguard the aircraft until then? Post a watch to prevent vandals and looters?
And now that the cat is out of the bag, why haven't pictures surfaced? Surly pictures at this point won't hamper the recovery.
Very exciting news, I can wait to see what shape she's in.
Shay
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Semper Fortis
What are they doing the meantime to safeguard the aircraft until then? Post a watch to prevent vandals and looters?
And now that the cat is out of the bag, why haven't pictures surfaced? Surly pictures at this point won't hamper the recovery.
Very exciting news, I can wait to see what shape she's in.
Shay
_____________
Semper Fortis
Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:04 am
Good questions, Shay -- I'll do my best to answer them. From looking at your avatar it's not hard to guess that this news is especially exciting to you. 
Waiting until 2008 is certainly less than ideal, but there just wasn't enough time left to plan a proper recovery before the weather closed in and the days grew short. It was deemed better to wait, gather information, resources, and support -- rather than risk damaging the aircraft with a hasty recovery or allowing it to deteriorate afterwards for lack of appropriate conservation methods.
At present, Mother Nature is probably taking the most effective measures to safeguard the wreck. Recent reports from Wales state that the same tidal forces that revealed the lost Lightning have already begun to cover it over once again.
Beyond that, the plane is very hard to spot unless you know exactly where (and when) to look -- and, thus far, the precise location information has not been released to the general public. Even so, steps are being taken to observe the area during the brief times when it is most vulnerable.
In some ways the news leak might actually prove beneficial. I think most interested people will be satisfied just knowing that there are efforts underway on the local, national, and international level to see that this important piece of our aviation heritage is ultimately preserved. In addition, the knowledge of widespread attention will likely disuade the minority of selfish or unthinking individuals who might otherwise be tempted to do a little souvenir hunting or just go blundering about. Of course, there are always those who will do what they want regardless, but there isn't much else that can be done about that.
As for the pictures... believe me, I'd love to be able to share some of the more than 2,000 images recorded during last month's survey. In fact, as some of you know (mostly Australians, New Zealanders, and insomniacs) my original post contained a stunning overhead view of the wreck that was obtained by the team using an ingenious kite-mounted camera. However, a consensus quickly grew among the working group (and especially the local authorities responsible for protecting the site) that releasing the photo right now would attract too much of the wrong kind of attention. I had to respect their wishes and remove the photo from WIX after only a few hours. I hope you'll all understand that I'm not trying to torture you and will make it available again as soon as everyone involved is comfortable putting it out there.
Waiting until 2008 is certainly less than ideal, but there just wasn't enough time left to plan a proper recovery before the weather closed in and the days grew short. It was deemed better to wait, gather information, resources, and support -- rather than risk damaging the aircraft with a hasty recovery or allowing it to deteriorate afterwards for lack of appropriate conservation methods.
At present, Mother Nature is probably taking the most effective measures to safeguard the wreck. Recent reports from Wales state that the same tidal forces that revealed the lost Lightning have already begun to cover it over once again.
Beyond that, the plane is very hard to spot unless you know exactly where (and when) to look -- and, thus far, the precise location information has not been released to the general public. Even so, steps are being taken to observe the area during the brief times when it is most vulnerable.
In some ways the news leak might actually prove beneficial. I think most interested people will be satisfied just knowing that there are efforts underway on the local, national, and international level to see that this important piece of our aviation heritage is ultimately preserved. In addition, the knowledge of widespread attention will likely disuade the minority of selfish or unthinking individuals who might otherwise be tempted to do a little souvenir hunting or just go blundering about. Of course, there are always those who will do what they want regardless, but there isn't much else that can be done about that.
As for the pictures... believe me, I'd love to be able to share some of the more than 2,000 images recorded during last month's survey. In fact, as some of you know (mostly Australians, New Zealanders, and insomniacs) my original post contained a stunning overhead view of the wreck that was obtained by the team using an ingenious kite-mounted camera. However, a consensus quickly grew among the working group (and especially the local authorities responsible for protecting the site) that releasing the photo right now would attract too much of the wrong kind of attention. I had to respect their wishes and remove the photo from WIX after only a few hours. I hope you'll all understand that I'm not trying to torture you and will make it available again as soon as everyone involved is comfortable putting it out there.
Last edited by Russ Matthews on Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:42 am
TBDude wrote:In fact, as some of you know (mostly Australians, New Zealanders, and insomniacs) my original post contained a stunning overhead view of the wreck that was obtained by the team using an ingenious kite-mounted camera.
Hey, I resemble that remark!
It was a very interesting photo, which I wish I'd copied (
) but didn't. Knowing it was from a kite is even more impressive.
More important, I think is that this is clearly an unprecedented joint effort between several organisations, and I hop it'll set a benchmark and standard that we can use in the future.
Also I was wrong in my first post.
Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:57 am
So...if i drive to Redondo will you show me?
Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:36 am
JDK wrote:It was a very interesting photo, which I wish I'd copied (
James It is probably in your Internet Explorer temp files cache.....
Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:39 am
paulmcmillan wrote:JDK wrote:It was a very interesting photo, which I wish I'd copied (
James It is probably in your Internet Explorer temp files cache.....
Ooo.
However, Mac/Firefox and my need has to have legitimate source (for publication).
Thanks though!
Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:02 pm
JDK wrote:More important, I think is that this is clearly an unprecedented joint effort between several organisations, and I hope it'll set a benchmark and standard that we can use in the future.
Thanks very much… I couldn't have said it better myself!
Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:12 pm
[quote="TBDude"]However, a consensus quickly grew among the working group that releasing the photo right now would attract too much of the wrong kind of attention. I had to respect their wishes and remove the photo from WIX after only a few hours. quote]
Darn it, so I missed it. You're too quick.
I am really quite excited about the discovery though, and will be patient. I sure hope nothing happens to the airframe in between now and the time it can be recovered.
By the way, I just skimmed the thread... I don't know if it's been mentioned or not, but what kind of condition is the airframe in?
Cheers,
David
Darn it, so I missed it. You're too quick.
I am really quite excited about the discovery though, and will be patient. I sure hope nothing happens to the airframe in between now and the time it can be recovered.
By the way, I just skimmed the thread... I don't know if it's been mentioned or not, but what kind of condition is the airframe in?
Cheers,
David
Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:40 pm
Yeah! At least post a picture of the kite! I'd like to see that, but I'm a nerd so what do you expect.JDK wrote:Knowing it was from a kite is even more impressive.
Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:52 am
TBDude
Thanks for all the good information. I certainly can understand the need to keep things to minimum if protecting the site is the main priority. And i hardily await it's excavation in the spring. But perhaps there are some questions you can answer.
You said you have over 2000 images of the Lightning. My question is (in your opinion) what kind of shape is the P-38 in after being burried in saltwater and sand for the past 60 years? Do you think that is restorable to atleast a nice static condition? Or is it too far gone to atempt a restoration and it's best to just preserve it in it's present condition (like the P-40N down in Italy)?
Finds like this and those of the Ju-88, He-111 and FW-190A recently recovered are making these days more exciting. I hope more equipment continue to surface from obscurity.
Thanks and keep us posted when you can.
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
Thanks for all the good information. I certainly can understand the need to keep things to minimum if protecting the site is the main priority. And i hardily await it's excavation in the spring. But perhaps there are some questions you can answer.
You said you have over 2000 images of the Lightning. My question is (in your opinion) what kind of shape is the P-38 in after being burried in saltwater and sand for the past 60 years? Do you think that is restorable to atleast a nice static condition? Or is it too far gone to atempt a restoration and it's best to just preserve it in it's present condition (like the P-40N down in Italy)?
Finds like this and those of the Ju-88, He-111 and FW-190A recently recovered are making these days more exciting. I hope more equipment continue to surface from obscurity.
Thanks and keep us posted when you can.
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:39 pm
Shay wrote:Do you think that is restorable to atleast a nice static condition? Or is it too far gone to atempt a restoration and it's best to just preserve it in it's present condition (like the P-40N down in Italy)?
Hi Shay,
While waiting for TBD's response, I think we'll see a conservation job like the Italian P-40F, as while the aircraft appears relatively complete (in the photo I was lucky enough to glimpse) and knowing what salt water and sand does to an airframe, any restoration would result in complete replacement of much of the structure. This is also predicated on the organisations involved.
I my be wrong...
Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:30 pm
Once again, JDK has said it just as well as I could have done myself.
Shay's example of the Anzio P-40 seems like the most fitting comparison both in terms of the basic condition of the airframe as well as the likely prospects for its eventual conservation and exhibition. Of course, the ultimate decisions rest with the museum and government folks in the UK who are currently deliberating the best options to move the project forward.
I should add that while the survey team obtained a wealth of images, I've only personally viewed about a dozen or so -- and have not yet been lucky enough to see the wreck first hand.
Unfortunately, I don't have a suitable shot of the kite system in action, but if anyone (like bdk) wants to learn more about the technology, just Google "Kite Aerial Photography" and you'll find all sorts of information.
Shay's example of the Anzio P-40 seems like the most fitting comparison both in terms of the basic condition of the airframe as well as the likely prospects for its eventual conservation and exhibition. Of course, the ultimate decisions rest with the museum and government folks in the UK who are currently deliberating the best options to move the project forward.
I should add that while the survey team obtained a wealth of images, I've only personally viewed about a dozen or so -- and have not yet been lucky enough to see the wreck first hand.
Unfortunately, I don't have a suitable shot of the kite system in action, but if anyone (like bdk) wants to learn more about the technology, just Google "Kite Aerial Photography" and you'll find all sorts of information.
Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:20 pm
On this Veterans Day weekend I thought the WIX readership would appreciate learning a little more about the man who flew 41-7677 on her final mission.
2nd Lt Robert F. Elliott was born and raised in Rich Square, NC and celebrated his 24th birthday (September 5) just three weeks before the accident that stranded his P-38F Lightning off a beach in Wales.
Enlisting first in the regular Army in 1937, he enrolled as an Aviation Cadet in the Air Corps three years later – earning his wings and 2nd Lieutenant’s commission at Kelly Field, San Antonio, TX on March 14, 1941 with the class of 41B.
As stated earlier in this thread, the 8th AF investigators determined that the loss of 41-7677 was due to “fuel exhaustion” caused by Lt. Elliott’s “carelessness” in failing to switch from his reserve to his main tanks. The Remarks and Recommendations section of their report states that “the necessary disciplinary action has been taken.” While it does not elaborate further on what form that punishment may have taken, it seems likely that Elliott’s momentary lapse in concentration earned him little more than a “slap on the wrist.” The USAAF had a war to win – and they needed experienced pilots (950 total hours, 180 in P-38s) like Lt. Elliott to do it.
The following months would certainly prove that their faith in him was justified as the young aviator served with distinction in the North African campaign. He was credited with damaging a German Me 109 in aerial combat as well as destroying another aircraft (and several locomotives) in daring ground attacks.
On December 5, 1942 Lt. Elliott was one of six pilots from the 49th FS assigned to escort a flight of nine A-20 Havocs on a mission to bomb the enemy airdrome at Bizerte in Tunisia. After accomplishing their objective, the Americans were jumped by a dozen or more Luftwaffe fighters. A fierce engagement followed, which claimed five of the six P-38s and three of their pilots -- including Lt. Elliot.
In a condolence letter to the family, Army Chief of Air Staff Maj. Gen. Barney M. Giles describes Lt. Elliott as an “outstanding leader” whose “sterling character and devotion to duty won the respect of his comrades and his bravery in the face of enemy action long will be remembered by those who served with him.”
2nd Lt. Robert F. Elliott remains missing in action to this day, but his legacy and our freedoms still endure. The preservation of P-38F 41-7677 would be a fitting tribute to him – and to the service and sacrifice of all those like him.
Flight School photo of 2nd Lt Robert F Elliot (courtesy of Robert M Elliott, used with permission)
2nd Lt Robert F. Elliott was born and raised in Rich Square, NC and celebrated his 24th birthday (September 5) just three weeks before the accident that stranded his P-38F Lightning off a beach in Wales.
Enlisting first in the regular Army in 1937, he enrolled as an Aviation Cadet in the Air Corps three years later – earning his wings and 2nd Lieutenant’s commission at Kelly Field, San Antonio, TX on March 14, 1941 with the class of 41B.
As stated earlier in this thread, the 8th AF investigators determined that the loss of 41-7677 was due to “fuel exhaustion” caused by Lt. Elliott’s “carelessness” in failing to switch from his reserve to his main tanks. The Remarks and Recommendations section of their report states that “the necessary disciplinary action has been taken.” While it does not elaborate further on what form that punishment may have taken, it seems likely that Elliott’s momentary lapse in concentration earned him little more than a “slap on the wrist.” The USAAF had a war to win – and they needed experienced pilots (950 total hours, 180 in P-38s) like Lt. Elliott to do it.
The following months would certainly prove that their faith in him was justified as the young aviator served with distinction in the North African campaign. He was credited with damaging a German Me 109 in aerial combat as well as destroying another aircraft (and several locomotives) in daring ground attacks.
On December 5, 1942 Lt. Elliott was one of six pilots from the 49th FS assigned to escort a flight of nine A-20 Havocs on a mission to bomb the enemy airdrome at Bizerte in Tunisia. After accomplishing their objective, the Americans were jumped by a dozen or more Luftwaffe fighters. A fierce engagement followed, which claimed five of the six P-38s and three of their pilots -- including Lt. Elliot.
In a condolence letter to the family, Army Chief of Air Staff Maj. Gen. Barney M. Giles describes Lt. Elliott as an “outstanding leader” whose “sterling character and devotion to duty won the respect of his comrades and his bravery in the face of enemy action long will be remembered by those who served with him.”
2nd Lt. Robert F. Elliott remains missing in action to this day, but his legacy and our freedoms still endure. The preservation of P-38F 41-7677 would be a fitting tribute to him – and to the service and sacrifice of all those like him.
Flight School photo of 2nd Lt Robert F Elliot (courtesy of Robert M Elliott, used with permission)
Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:49 pm
How exciting!
I don't know how you guys can stand to wait that long knowing it's there. Talk about a kid at Christmas!
Is the paint/markings intact?
And is there a link somewhere on the italian P-40? This is the first I've heard of it.
I don't know how you guys can stand to wait that long knowing it's there. Talk about a kid at Christmas!
Is the paint/markings intact?
And is there a link somewhere on the italian P-40? This is the first I've heard of it.
Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:29 pm
Yes, it's difficult to be patient... but the rewards from waiting until preparations are complete and the working conditions improve outweigh the risks of acting in haste.
41-7677 has survived on that beach for 65 years and should be able to endure a few months more.
The Anzio P-40 was well covered in a separate thread just last month. The WIX community provided a lot of great links and info that make for some fascinating reading. Check it out here...
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16294&highlight=anzio+p40
41-7677 has survived on that beach for 65 years and should be able to endure a few months more.
The Anzio P-40 was well covered in a separate thread just last month. The WIX community provided a lot of great links and info that make for some fascinating reading. Check it out here...
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16294&highlight=anzio+p40