Mustang vs. Fire Hydrant

[wendovertom]

question on the Bagley airframe - did Gene Mallet sell this P-51 to John or did John buy the plane from Gene? Last I had heard the Mallet plane was involved in a wind storm accident in Provo.

Thanks,

Tom P.

[51fixer]

Steve,
I agree that these guys know what they are doing but Rich is correct. Regardless of a tailwheel pilots instinct to keep the stick back during a run up the Mustang will raise the tail with chocks, brakes, stick full back and so on above 40" of MP. It will lift it right off the ground gaurenteed! Relax a bit of back pressure around 35" and it'll raise it as well. So anything above 30" can be pretty dicey unless you know what your doing. The more fuel you have in the wings the better but no gaurentees.

MikeV

Rich and Mike,

I stand corrected. Is the P-51 the only warbird with this trait?

Steve G

Most have this tendancy if they are a tail dragger and have a good bit of power.
In airshows I have seen Cubs and the like practically stopped on the runway with the aircraft in a level flight attitude by using power and brakes.
Last summer we changed the engine in Bald Eagle and we ran it up to 60" MP on the ramp with everything chocked and tied down. Quite a nerve racking experience.
Bill Muszala told me the highest power he ever ran on a P-51 was something like 70" or so and it was in Miss Candace while tied down on the ground. In all of his Mustang flying he never exceded 60".
Another friend of mine is featured in a photo standing next to a TBM with the prop blade buried in the ground and the tailwheel about 20' up in the air. Of course that was after a ladder was brought out to rescue him from the cockpit. He was doing a standard run up and it went up on his nose.
Rich

[rwdfresno]

Another friend of mine is featured in a photo standing next to a TBM with the prop blade buried in the ground and the tailwheel about 20' up in the air. Of course that was after a ladder was brought out to rescue him from the cockpit. He was doing a standard run up and it went up on his nose.
Rich

I have seen a TBM dig it's prop into the ground running up as well. It was a bit scary to watch as I was not far from the aircraft at the time.

[AirJimL2]

I believe that the "Morman Mustang" owned by Bagley is this airplane:

http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p51registry/p51-6722579.html

and as such is a different airframe from the Mallette airplane.

Jim

[Bill Greenwood]

I know of a P-40 that went up on its nose during a high power runup. The Spitfire Pilot Notes specify normal runup and mag checks are done at 0 boost which is atmospheric pressure, assumed to be 30 inches. If there is any problem or after major maintenance and one is going to use takeoff power of 7 lbs or higher, then it says the tail must be securely tied down. The important thing is that the area in front of the plane be clear just in case the tie down broke or it jumped the chocks and went forward before the pilot or mech could close the throttle. I do my mag check at 1800 rpm and would not go over 2000 max even with full aft stick. Some P-51s, I think the H, had a quirk in the boost system where it might go to full throttle on start up if it had not been shut down correctly before. I'd guess most civilian ones now have a different system.

[John Beyl]

Steve,
I agree that these guys know what they are doing but Rich is correct. Regardless of a tailwheel pilots instinct to keep the stick back during a run up the Mustang will raise the tail with chocks, brakes, stick full back and so on above 40" of MP. It will lift it right off the ground gaurenteed! Relax a bit of back pressure around 35" and it'll raise it as well. So anything above 30" can be pretty dicey unless you know what your doing. The more fuel you have in the wings the better but no gaurentees.

MikeV

Rich and Mike,

I stand corrected. Is the P-51 the only warbird with this trait?

Steve G

Most have this tendancy if they are a tail dragger and have a good bit of power.
In airshows I have seen Cubs and the like practically stopped on the runway with the aircraft in a level flight attitude by using power and brakes.
Last summer we changed the engine in Bald Eagle and we ran it up to 60" MP on the ramp with everything chocked and tied down. Quite a nerve racking experience.
Bill Muszala told me the highest power he ever ran on a P-51 was something like 70" or so and it was in Miss Candace while tied down on the ground. In all of his Mustang flying he never exceded 60".
Another friend of mine is featured in a photo standing next to a TBM with the prop blade buried in the ground and the tailwheel about 20' up in the air. Of course that was after a ladder was brought out to rescue him from the cockpit. He was doing a standard run up and it went up on his nose.
Rich

So Rich...where is "Your Friend" these day's? I went to lunch the afternoon you are describing and when I came back there was a neat little trench in the dirt on the south end of the hangar with forklift tracks several feet behind it. When I asked what happened, I was told with a grin, wait for the pictures! I used to have a picture of it myself but haven't been able to locate it for a while. Nothing bent or broken. I guess we can laugh now about how crazy it looked...but back then it was, well, not so funny...less so for some!

John

[bipe215]

There are a lot of small taildraggers that can lift the tail at less than full power, with foward stick of course. Some have the mains so far foward that even full power and full foward elevator can't pick up the tail.
It just seemed strange that even with full aft stick a P-51's tail could come up. I guess its a function of all that power combined with gear location and thrust line.

Steve G

[wendovertom]

Jim - thanks for the redirect. I knew John owned this Cavalier - well, what is left of it after the mishap. There were some bitter feelings over that plane - a local group (Not Wendover) asked for right of first refusal which they were told they would get, then it was suddenly sold. Can't blame Russ's family for going with someone with cash in hand but it irk'd a few folks on the other side of the fence.

Tom P.

[51fixer]

Steve,
I agree that these guys know what they are doing but Rich is correct. Regardless of a tailwheel pilots instinct to keep the stick back during a run up the Mustang will raise the tail with chocks, brakes, stick full back and so on above 40" of MP. It will lift it right off the ground gaurenteed! Relax a bit of back pressure around 35" and it'll raise it as well. So anything above 30" can be pretty dicey unless you know what your doing. The more fuel you have in the wings the better but no gaurentees.

MikeV

Rich and Mike,

I stand corrected. Is the P-51 the only warbird with this trait?

Steve G

Most have this tendancy if they are a tail dragger and have a good bit of power.
In airshows I have seen Cubs and the like practically stopped on the runway with the aircraft in a level flight attitude by using power and brakes.
Last summer we changed the engine in Bald Eagle and we ran it up to 60" MP on the ramp with everything chocked and tied down. Quite a nerve racking experience.
Bill Muszala told me the highest power he ever ran on a P-51 was something like 70" or so and it was in Miss Candace while tied down on the ground. In all of his Mustang flying he never exceded 60".
Another friend of mine is featured in a photo standing next to a TBM with the prop blade buried in the ground and the tailwheel about 20' up in the air. Of course that was after a ladder was brought out to rescue him from the cockpit. He was doing a standard run up and it went up on his nose.
Rich

So Rich...where is "Your Friend" these day's? I went to lunch the afternoon you are describing and when I came back there was a neat little trench in the dirt on the south end of the hangar with forklift tracks several feet behind it. When I asked what happened, I was told with a grin, wait for the pictures! I used to have a picture of it myself but haven't been able to locate it for a while. Nothing bent or broken. I guess we can laugh now about how crazy it looked...but back then it was, well, not so funny...less so for some!

John

I just talked with "My friend" the other day after sending him an A-4 nose gear. He is currently in the desert southwest.
This event happened west of OSH and North of Iowa in EP.
JD showed me the pic years ago.
I haven't had to be cryptic in messages in the past. I guess it's to protect the innocent. Nevermind, there is no innocence involved.
Rich

[bdk]

I haven't had to be cryptic in messages in the past. I guess it's to protect the innocent. Nevermind, there is no innocence involved.

Well then, please post the photo! You can photoshop a black rectangle over the offending party's head even though some of us know who it is anyhow.

P.S. I understand a file and a spray can was involved in the repair.

[John Beyl]

Steve,
I agree that these guys know what they are doing but Rich is correct. Regardless of a tailwheel pilots instinct to keep the stick back during a run up the Mustang will raise the tail with chocks, brakes, stick full back and so on above 40" of MP. It will lift it right off the ground gaurenteed! Relax a bit of back pressure around 35" and it'll raise it as well. So anything above 30" can be pretty dicey unless you know what your doing. The more fuel you have in the wings the better but no gaurentees.

MikeV

Rich and Mike,

I stand corrected. Is the P-51 the only warbird with this trait?

Steve G

Most have this tendancy if they are a tail dragger and have a good bit of power.
In airshows I have seen Cubs and the like practically stopped on the runway with the aircraft in a level flight attitude by using power and brakes.
Last summer we changed the engine in Bald Eagle and we ran it up to 60" MP on the ramp with everything chocked and tied down. Quite a nerve racking experience.
Bill Muszala told me the highest power he ever ran on a P-51 was something like 70" or so and it was in Miss Candace while tied down on the ground. In all of his Mustang flying he never exceded 60".
Another friend of mine is featured in a photo standing next to a TBM with the prop blade buried in the ground and the tailwheel about 20' up in the air. Of course that was after a ladder was brought out to rescue him from the cockpit. He was doing a standard run up and it went up on his nose.
Rich

So Rich...where is "Your Friend" these day's? I went to lunch the afternoon you are describing and when I came back there was a neat little trench in the dirt on the south end of the hangar with forklift tracks several feet behind it. When I asked what happened, I was told with a grin, wait for the pictures! I used to have a picture of it myself but haven't been able to locate it for a while. Nothing bent or broken. I guess we can laugh now about how crazy it looked...but back then it was, well, not so funny...less so for some!

John

I just talked with "My friend" the other day after sending him an A-4 nose gear. He is currently in the desert southwest.
This event happened west of OSH and North of Iowa in EP.
JD showed me the pic years ago.
I haven't had to be cryptic in messages in the past. I guess it's to protect the innocent. Nevermind, there is no innocence involved.
Rich

"This event happened west of OSH and North of Iowa in EP."
Yes, to one very smelly TBM painted up in British colors...or would that be colours.

"Nevermind, there is no innocence involved."

[Warbirdnerd]

I haven't had to be cryptic in messages in the past. I guess it's to protect the innocent. Nevermind, there is no innocence involved.

Well then, please post the photo! You can photoshop a black rectangle over the offending party's head even though some of us know who it is anyhow.

P.S. I understand a file and a spray can was involved in the repair.

Yep-1 Aerosol Overhaul and it was all ready for the show.

[Lynn Allen]

John Bagley's P-51 fuselage is also ready to go...

John Bagley's Mormom's Mustang ??

And what is Harry Barr's other Mustang named? I'll have to check my numbers closer tomorrow night


TIA,

Lynn

John Bagley's Morman Mustang is in the far hanger door being readied for transport.
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p51regis ... 74865.html
Harry Barr's other Mustang is 44-84933
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p51regis ... 84933.html

Roger that and thanks,

Lynn

[EDowning]

Hopefully when they release John's Mustang, they will give it to him with full tanks. That would have eliminated the need to be at Tri State in the first place.

[51fixer]

I haven't had to be cryptic in messages in the past. I guess it's to protect the innocent. Nevermind, there is no innocence involved.

Well then, please post the photo! You can photoshop a black rectangle over the offending party's head even though some of us know who it is anyhow.

P.S. I understand a file and a spray can was involved in the repair.

JD and "My friend" never trusted me with such reminders.
A source other than I will have to give up the goods on this one.
Rich