Any P-40 experts care to comment on this image?

JDK · **Posted:** Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:44 pm

Wildchild wrote:

That engine's probly totaled.

Ya reckon?

Shay wrote:

Forgive my ignorance, what is the UK's equivlant to JPAC? Could this be them?

There is no UK equivalent. There is a mix of military and other extempore managers of situations that arise, but there's no one official that goes looking. Probably at base because the UK has been fighting everywhere for longer than most other nations trying to 'bring the boys back home'. There are a number of unofficial people and organisations who do mostly very good work. There are posters from the UK here who have more intimate involvement than I with that kind of work. They may add to, or correct my comments.

george wrote:

In the original 5 photos, photo 2 showed the rear fuselage section still straight and not touching the ground, although 70 years with a cracked back. Some have speculated a wheels down landing, but in that same photo the tail wheel is retracted. Those photos seem to no longer be available at the original site. The newest photos show the tail wheel down, and the rear fuselage now on the ground.

You can see copies I snagged (with credit) on my blog here. I think the originals have vanished due to a bandwidth blowout; nothing more suspicious.

http://vintageaeroplanewriter.blogspot. ... yhawk.html

mustanglover wrote:

I am no expert in deserts and how the wear and tear from everyday sandblasting, but why would the upper sides of this airplane not be sandblasted, yet the wings and lower fuselage is very well sandblasted?

Because there's an inverse variation of how much sandblasting occurs as you go up in height from the ground - most winds move a little sand at low levels often, but the winds required to lift more sand higher are rarer, so over time, have less effect. Even on something as low and small as a Kittyhawk. On a bigger scale, that's why mushroom rock formations develop.

And as Peter says;

PeterA wrote:

Deserts behave differently. These dunes further south in Namibia are over a 1000' high...and they move over time.

These are Barchan Dunes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barchan

Regards,

The Inspector · **Posted:** Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:51 pm

And in other places, sand doesn't move at all. There are spots in the desert East of Brawley CA. where you can still see tank tread marks laid down by Pattons training maneuvers before WW2 and I believe I read somewhere that during WW2 a British force followed tank tracks in Africa that were later discovered to be from an Italian tank brigade from 1926?

51fixer · **Posted:** Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:01 pm

george wrote:

In the original 5 photos, photo 2 showed the rear fuselage section still straight and not touching the ground, although 70 years with a cracked back. Some have speculated a wheels down landing, but in that same photo the tail wheel is retracted. Those photos seem to no longer be available at the original site. The newest photos show the tail wheel down, and the rear fuselage now on the ground.

That view is from a good distance away and I think there is a berm of sand that blocks the line of sight right along the bottom edge of the fuselage.
I think it doesn't allow you to see the gear and gear doors.
The fact the tire and chunks of the rim are a good distance behind the remains, along with a brake drum torn free with little of the rim attached, shows that the gear was down at the 1st point of contact with the ground.

51fixer · **Posted:** Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:06 pm

dtpitcairn wrote:

To expand on Rich's comment about the data bent seat back and also earlier commentary about the turn and bank indicator being smashed on purpose, could it be that the turn and bank indicator glass was broken by the pilots head during the landing? Seems like the pilot would have hit the control stick if his head hit the dash though. If someone already said all this, sorry.

Shoulder harness probably would have kept him from going that far forward.
More likely to hit the gunsight. I did that with Princess Elizabeth several times just leaning forward.
The smashed instrument could be from his hand flying forward or an object that was loose if it happened during the crash.

george · **Joined:** Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:20 pm **Posts:** 435

Photo 4 of the original set clearly shows the left rear glass in shards, collapsed down and against the frame, yet in the latest set the same perspex is completely intact in that area. Too many contradictions between the two sets of photos.

Saabmeister · **Joined:** Fri Feb 17, 2006 6:56 pm **Posts:** 170

george wrote:

Photo 4 of the original set clearly shows the left rear glass in shards, collapsed down and against the frame, yet in the latest set the same perspex is completely intact in that area. Too many contradictions between the two sets of photos.

Have you considered the possibility that the set of photos posted first were taken later in the day or even later on, after damage had occurred due to a third party or due to someone causing damage to it while they were inspecting it? I dont think there are any contradictions between the sets of photos.

N3Njeff · **Posted:** Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:23 pm

Some good info I scaned a while back out of a Tech manual that I have. I know its the earlier version but since everyone is in the know about this P-40, might want to know about others.

Paul was a Tech Rep for Curtiss and made a few trips to work with the RAF and the RAAF on helping them assemble and work the bugs out of the P-40.

N3Njeff · **Posted:** Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:31 pm

Forgot to mention, Paul's pics were published in the Squadron Signal P-40 Walk Around book.

51fixer · **Posted:** Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:00 pm

The Inspector wrote:

cimmex wrote:

The Inspector wrote:

The blower impeller is mounted on the induction accessory gear case vertically and is under the carburetor mounting adapter at the center/back of the engine and looks like the impeller on any other engine mounted supercharger a swirlled conical shaped wheel and turns inside a cast diffuser ring that distributes the fuel/air mixture to the induction log mainfold that runs fore and aft between the cylinder banks and the cylinder induction 'rams horns'(made by MAYTAG) are attached to the log manifold. The coolant scavenger pump is mounted on the very bottom of the accessory gear case and is the lowest component on the engine, and sort of resembles a cast metal cinnamon bun, it mounts horizontally. The impeller shown is for moving fluids not compressed induction air/fuel mixture and the gear cluster is part of the accessory drive system for coolant, oil, starter, and other components that all run off the blower gear case. Later models of the (said with reverence) Indiana tractor motor used a coolant scavenge impeller that more closely resembled a smaller diameter version of the blower impeller to cut down on cavitation and improve cooling as the power ratings went up.

'You can fly an ALLISON further than you can ship a MERLIN' :lol:

Do you have a pic which shows where these parts are located?
regards
cimmex

GOOGLE IMAGE 'ALLISON V-1710' and the third picture on the top row (from the Hydroplane and Race Boat Museum) is a good photo of the accessory (rear) end of the engine, the scavenger pump is at the very bottom of the gear case below the starter mounting pad. I got my info from the ALLISON overhaul manual copy I have.

When I worked on P-38s and such a lifetime ago I pulled the coolant pump on a couple engines to repair the drive shaft for the pump. It would wear from the lip of the seal.
The pump was a module and easily removed.
The impeller shown I'll still call the supercharger.
If you look close in this cutaway image under the carb body you can see the impeller blades and part of the retaining nut. It looks similar.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... gine_1.jpg
With this much damage there was probably enough fuel to start a small fire. With the oil tank on the back side of the firewall and a lack of fuel onboard the fire probably burned itself out quickly.
The fire extinguisher was missing from its holder behind the pilot. He might have grabbed it. Maybe it just fell out of the holder during the crash as well.
Fuel selector appears to be turned to a tank and not off.
From WIKI, not my favorite source-

Supercharger: Centrifugal-type, single-stage, 15-vane impeller, 10.25 in (260 mm) diameter

But this matches the impeller shown.

54H60 · **Joined:** Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:07 pm **Posts:** 48

You might want to read this link...

http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/ ... vered.aspx

http://www.vintagewingsofcanada.blogspot.ca/

Steve Nelson · **Posted:** Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:58 am

Interesting article, although it seems VWoC is looking for the same answers as the rest of us. The two B&W photos in the article are definitely not the same aircraft as the desert sentinel however..the aircraft in the old pics have the curved dorsal filet of the P-40K (whatever the RAF designation was.) Of course, it was common practice to "recycle" aircraft letters..there may have been several HS-Bs during 260 Squadron's time in Africa.

SN

old iron · **Posted:** Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:35 pm

The clothing and the clarity of the photos do seem to confirm that this is a recent discover and not just some old photos.

Wilson · **Posted:** Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:48 am

There is actually a very nice war memorial and series of military cemeteries at El Alamein honoring each of the nations who fought in the desert war. I wouldn't be surprised if the plane ends up there. As for the unfortunate pilot, they need to check in the sand under the wing. Sad, but that's usually where you find them if they stayed with the plane.

wingman1 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:04 am

Wilson wrote:

any id on "that" aircraft? :drinkers:

Enemy Ace · **Posted:** Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:26 am

Sorry to get off topic but on the subject of War memorials and cemetery...
Don't watch if you are easily upset. Everyone needs to know about this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LApUSZXdoUA

Warbird Information Exchange

Any P-40 experts care to comment on this image?

Who is online