Best Prop Fighter VI, Summary

[DaveM2]

The 190D was certainly proven in combat and was in service for around 8 months. It was designed as an interim fighter before the TA152H came on line ( excellent, but unpoven). The Luftwaffe pilots found the Dora so good they didn't care whether the Ta152 replaced it or not.
You need more than one reference for a 'source'...and where did the 'source' get the information from....by the sound of it , not from the horses mouth

Dave

[Dan K]

Most numerous of the "Doras" was the D-9. Ballpark numbers appear to be:

426 mph @ 21,000 (458 mph @38,000 for the D-12)
Climb to 20,000 ft: about 7 minutes.
Armament: 2x20mm in wings, 2x13mm in engine cowling

First confirmed victory was on 9/28/44 over a...ummm...uhh...

...spitfire

[Bill Greenwood]

Dan, My 190 specs seem to be the 426 top speed, so the MKXIV is a little faster. I had not seen 458 for the D-12, pretty impressive, wonder if that is a prototype or at full field load? Sounds like guns are similar, late Spits usually with 2 cannons& 4 machine guns, or 4 cannons, and they were good ones. I think the Spit had an edge in climb & turn. I just got back from Barnes&Noble, no FW info, but a new book FLYING AM.COMBAT AIRCRAFT by Stackpole Books with impressions. One is Maj Gen McCorkle, who was an ace in both 51 and Spit. The MKIX could win mock dogfights with better climb, acceleration and turning. The 51 was faster and of course he thought it was the best long range escort. The book doesn't have foreign fighters. A good chapter on dive and engine problems in early 38s.

[oz rb fan]

the problem is that we are comparing aircraft that were designed for very diffrent purposes eg the spitfire is a defence fighter (short range great rate of climb a lot of guns etc to take down attacking bomber's )
the mustang (p51-b/d) longrange escort fighter ,zero naval fighter ,fw190d defence and some of the other greats typhoon.tempest beaufighter that whilst they not have been a great success inthe role that they were orriginally designed for they went on to great thing's as strike fighters.
so maybe we should devide them up
1 intercepte- spitfire -special mention to fw190-d and ta 152
2 long range escort- p51d
3 naval (ship defence and bomber cover)-zero special mention f4u and f6f
4 stike fighter-tempest special mention typhoon and beaufighter
overall what would i want to go to war in is more personal as i still stand by my first choice of greatest fighter the ki61/100 series .
in the end the greatest influence of what was the greatest is down to the pilots behind the stick and the training they had ,at the beging of the war the axis had the upper hand in expirence and training but by the end the allies had the upper hand as their training and tactics changed and improved.
the proof that the pilot made the greatest diffrence i think comes from saburo sakai's bio when he talks about a mission late in the war when he was jumped by 15iirc inexperinced hellcat pilots whilst flying an a6m5 zero back to base with no ammo and by taking the same evasive manouver he survived by the fact that none of his attakers learnt from their previous passes ,the hellcats gave up and the zero landed back at base with not one bullet hole in the aircraft (the combat was confirmed by an american ace who met sakai after he war .
paul

[DaveM2]

And of course if the 'greatest' is measured by combat success the 109 wins hands (and feet) down

Dave

[oz rb fan]

dave would that make the zero a close second
paul

[DaveM2]

Nothing is a 'close' second to the 109
As far as the Zero goes I wouldn't think so, as they didn't really improve performance wise against an ever more potent opposition from 1943 on.
But this is of course a whole other subject.....so won't hijack the thread any further

[Bill Greenwood]

Oz, don't be so reticent, tell us how you really feel about that Beaufighter! Seriously, you asked about pilot experience. First no way do I have any combat time . After college I was a A. F. trained mech during Vietnam,, staioned at LaPorte Texas next to the base Bush was at. I did not volunteer, this was after TET, and it seemed like going to Nam was like boarding Titanic AFTER the iceberg is sighted dead ahead! Sadly for a lot of guys my initial assement of the war was all too accurate. I turned down officer school, wonder if I would have resisted if the ANG was still flying the 51H? I was lucky enough to be able to own a Spit all these years. I also have type rating in P-51, but low time in it. I've got a brief ride in P-40 and P-47, so I could say I have an informed opinion on Spits, I've flown 3, all Merlin, but on other fighters my info is mostly from reading. I'm adequate in T-6,and flew T-34 for years(easiest plane going). I'll write something later about my impresion of P-51D & Spit IX. Thanks for your input.

[oz rb fan]

hi bill
i cant help but love those large ugly (but somehow enticing ) beau's having crawled all over the moorabin mk21 when i was a lot younger.
about the pilots experience i was hoping for the modern pilots thoughts as like most people i have only read about what these wonderful machines.
i'm also nitrested of the 3 spit's that you have flown were they diffrent models and which did you prefer (from the war time pilots notes iv'e read the mkviii was the nicest to fly.
also which (the mustang or spit) is nicer from a modern pilots view .
the main modern stuff iv'e read are from people like mark and ray hanna and while eye opening because of the amount of diffrent types that they flew it's nice to get diffrent people's veiw as all are diffrent .
ray hanna's veiw of the la9 being in his veiw better than both the seafury and bearcat was a big surprise and iv' friends that still after reading the article don't balieve it .
paul

[phil65]

Bill you seem to love cannons,if their so great why did the F-86 have 50 cals? Plus I'll take Bob Hoover in a Piper Cub with a 45 over most pilots in a Spit anyways.

[Bill Greenwood]

Phil. What did Blackbeard on pirate ships, John Paul Jones on Old Ironsides, and Col. William Travis on the Alamo walls fire? It was a manly cannon, not some little pop gun. True, Davey Crockett did have a long gun cause he didn't bathe too often, therefore had a hard time sneeking up real close to a deer or grizzly and had to hit em way off.. Also he was with James Bowie, so usually woke up pretty hung over and the cannon hurt his ears. As for this Hoover guy, I've seen him fly and he can't even stay right side up. Some people say he and what his name, the battery saleman, Yeager, are the two best ever. If that's so, how good were the German pilots that shot them down? Some people are easily impressed when Bob does that roll without spilling a drop out of the glass, but I know the secret; it is all about motivation; that ain't water in that glass. I own a J-3, it and a Spit are the two neatest planes I've flown. It could outurn anything if under 50mph. It will also outclimb Spit Bearcat, anything for the first foot. I'd love to have Bob fly it, but his legs are too long to even sit inside. You didn't really want a serious answer? I'll think of it after breakfast.

[Mudge]

Thanks Bill, I needed that bit of levity with my breakfast.

Mudge the hibernating

[BattleRabbit]

While I agree that the Spitfire and Mustang were both terrific fighters, both manuverable, fast and potent in combat... I would have to say my nod goes to the workhorse-fighters, like the P-47, and Hawker Hurricane. Both of these were not only heavily armed, but were far more rugged then their famed counterparts. The P-51 gets all the attention, but in many aspects the P-47 outperformed it, according to my sources(just a few Jane's handbooks that are within reach at the moment) the P-47 was quicker, could carry more weaponry(not including the extra .50 cals it already supported) and, using larger drop tanks than were used on the P-51, had a greater potential range. To top it all off, the P-47 lacked the finicky cooling system that was so vulnerable in the Merlin engined 51's.

I would also give the same mention to the Corsair, as it could just do it all, and did so well into the 50s(last Corsair produced wasn't until 1951), proving that it REALLY had something going for it at a time that the whole concept of airpower was being driven well into the jet age. Heck, the corsair even made aces in the Korean war. The mustang is the only other WWII plane that can say that AFAIK, and it had a greater rate of losses throughout its career than did the corsair.

Finally, I would like to give honorable mention to the BF-109G and the Kawasaki KI-61 Hein... the BF-109G for obvious reasons, and the KI-61 because it made Pappy Boyington's hair stand up farther than any other Japanese plane!

[airnutz]

It was a manly cannon, not some little pop gun.

Cannon, classicly had a slower rate of fire Bill, plus you had to be more accurate with your shot
and at closer range than with the 6-fifties. If the target was jinking and jerking about, nailing him could be tough.

With 6-fifties at long range, you could throw up a wall-of-lead and let him fly into it. In a close range situation, you
chew him to pieces with concentrated bursts...as I understand the science anyway.
EDIT...
With a concentration of the 30cal or .303..your really just trying to "nibble" them to
pieces, AND your not devestating his armoured areas...a battery of 50's, or a well placed cannon round...was really a tough day to deal with.

[daveymac82c]

talking about the work horses, I'm not the most knowledgable about all the planes, but having been an Air Cadet in Canada we would always take part in the Battle of Britain Parade.

Each year at the Battle of Britain Parade we'd talk about the importance of the RAF and most specifically the Hurricane. The information we went over said the Hurricane was responsible for more air victories than the Spit, and most importantly, bomber victories. (as a side note, I get the feeling the Spits kept the 109's busy and away from the Hurricanes).

And.... seeing as how the Battle of Britain was seriously the pivot point in Europe, had the Hurricane not made the impact it did, the war would probably have turned out very differently.

That would make the Hurricane one of the most important fighters of the war.

As for putting up a Hurricane against other fighters, it probably wouldn't do too hot, but like mentioned above, most fighters were designed for different purposes.

-David

P.S. I still feel that the Spitfire is the best all-round fighter during WWII, but I am biased. All I'm saying is that the Hurricane wasn't the best, but it was very important.