Low flying Stearman incident. October 4, 2023

bipe215 · **Posted:** Mon Oct 16, 2023 3:15 pm

Chris Brame wrote:

Randy Haskin wrote:

HOLY ____! :shock:

Info and outcome please??

F-106 collision with a grain elevator during a parade. Pilot punched out but did not survive.

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:03 pm

Randy Haskin wrote:

Matt Gunsch wrote:

when you are flying wing, your entire focus is on keeping 2 points on the lead plane aligned, and nothing else. You do not look at your instruments, or radios, or anything else.

Well, that's overstating things a bit.

A wingman should be entirely capable of glances away from the aircraft he is in formation with (to make radio frequency changes and make "ops checks" of engine and fuel gauges) without hitting the other aircraft or making major deviations from the tolerances of formation position..

When you are in formation, you NEVER take your eyes off your lead, PERIOD. When it comes time to do a frequency change, you open up the formation, change your radio, then move back into formation. I was acting as safety in a 4 ship of CJs, we were #4, the trainee was doing a very good job up until one point. We were getting ready to head back and lead called for a frequency change, next thing I saw was trainee's head look down and start fiddling with the radio, I guarded the controls, as we started to climb towards our #3, just as I was about to take over control, Trainee's head came up, saw how close we had gotten and over controlled the recovery. I keyed the intercom and said, And that is why we never take our eyes off the lead, and always open up the formation before we look away. He then asked if I was going to take the plane, to which I said I was about half a second from doing so when he looked up.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:23 pm

Matt Gunsch wrote:

When you are in formation, you NEVER take your eyes off your lead, PERIOD.

There's this little thing called peripheral vision. It might not save you from hitting, say, a B-17, but it SHOULD alert you to the treetops being a wee tight, especially in something as slow as a Stearman. If you don't know that while flying, your SA is questionable. And yes, I've flown formation. I've also been in a plane as a passenger when a pilot who knew better was waaaay too low.

p51buff · **Joined:** Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:01 am **Posts:** 42

Some of y'all throwing rocks need to go back and reread (or read) some Tony Kern books.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Tue Oct 17, 2023 8:49 am

p51buff wrote:

Some of y'all throwing rocks need to go back and reread (or read) some Tony Kern books.

What do you mean by throwing rocks?

I don't care if a guy is as good as Chuck Yeager in a plane, if he decides to put the prop of his aircraft that close to farm equipment, he's lost his edge, or his sense of good judgment at least momentarily.

Also, the fact that there are at least two videos seems to indicate that this didn't just happen spontaneously.

If I do that someday, I HOPE people would keep me accountable. We're human, sometimes we do dumb things and those dumb things sometimes have consequences. Also, warranted criticism doesn't mean you don't like or respect someone.

Ruberneck · **Posted:** Tue Oct 17, 2023 11:35 am

Chris Brame wrote:

Randy Haskin wrote:

HOLY ____! :shock:

Info and outcome please??

Link for more info on the F-106 picture
https://f-106deltadart.com/piwigo/picture.php?/8959

Tim Savage · **Joined:** Mon May 03, 2004 8:26 pm **Posts:** 630

Matt Gunsch wrote:

Randy Haskin wrote:

Matt Gunsch wrote:

when you are flying wing, your entire focus is on keeping 2 points on the lead plane aligned, and nothing else. You do not look at your instruments, or radios, or anything else.

Well, that's overstating things a bit.

A wingman should be entirely capable of glances away from the aircraft he is in formation with (to make radio frequency changes and make "ops checks" of engine and fuel gauges) without hitting the other aircraft or making major deviations from the tolerances of formation position..

When you are in formation, you NEVER take your eyes off your lead, PERIOD. When it comes time to do a frequency change, you open up the formation, change your radio, then move back into formation. I was acting as safety in a 4 ship of CJs, we were #4, the trainee was doing a very good job up until one point. We were getting ready to head back and lead called for a frequency change, next thing I saw was trainee's head look down and start fiddling with the radio, I guarded the controls, as we started to climb towards our #3, just as I was about to take over control, Trainee's head came up, saw how close we had gotten and over controlled the recovery. I keyed the intercom and said, And that is why we never take our eyes off the lead, and always open up the formation before we look away. He then asked if I was going to take the plane, to which I said I was about half a second from doing so when he looked up.

I love the internet.

You do realize that Randy is an actual military trained formation pilot that actually flew combat sorties, right? I fly formation all the time, although not military trained, you can quickly scan the cockpit etc, and absolutely need to….as long as you don’t dwell on it. The longer you fly formation the better you can get at this. I know that you want to be in the know here, but let’s be honest that most of your formation experience has been in the back seat…at least that is my recollection from your T-6 days.

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Tue Oct 17, 2023 8:22 pm

whether flying from the front seat or back seat, the sight picture might be different, but the rules are the same, and I have flown formation from the front seat, the rule is, if lead looks over and does not see eyes looking back back, when who ever is not looking, when they finally look, there will be nothing but empty air around them.

Formation in combat is not the same as formation in a airshow environment, combat has more distance between planes some the wingman can help scan for targets, and to better cover his lead. Airshow are flown for show and making it look good for the crowd. We have given a lot of rides to current fighter pilots and they were not used to flying as tight as we did for our shows. While it is formation, it is different when you are in combat vs a show.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Tue Oct 17, 2023 8:52 pm

Matt Gunsch wrote:

whether flying from the front seat or back seat, the sight picture might be different, but the rules are the same, and I have flown formation from the front seat, the rule is, if lead looks over and does not see eyes looking back back, when who ever is not looking, when they finally look, there will be nothing but empty air around them.

Formation in combat is not the same as formation in a airshow environment, combat has more distance between planes some the wingman can help scan for targets, and to better cover his lead. Airshow are flown for show and making it look good for the crowd. We have given a lot of rides to current fighter pilots and they were not used to flying as tight as we did for our shows. While it is formation, it is different when you are in combat vs a show.

Matt, the FAST manual (Here: http://www.flyfast.org/content/reference-materialmaps) has this to say:

Quote:

SITUATIONAL AWARENESS
Discipline and situational awareness are part and parcel to every pilot’s modus operandi, but formation flight requires taking these to a higher level. The academic definition of situational awareness is: The continuous observation of current conditions and, along with the integration of previous knowledge, the ability to quickly form a coherent mental picture to anticipate future needs and direct future actions. Or, in more prosaic language, “Don’t let your aircraft occupy space where your brain has not already been.” It is absolutely critical that every formation pilot has his “head in the game” at all times. There is little room for error and errors can propagate quickly throughout a flight of aircraft in formation.

I honestly doubt that the formation guys I know in the airshow circuit would agree that this Stearman thing is an example they would promote.

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Wed Oct 18, 2023 8:47 pm

One of the founders of FAST and one of the authors of the manual, is who taught me to fly formation, I also supplied photos for the first update of the T-34 manual when the T-6 and other sections were added.

OD/NG · **Joined:** Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:36 pm **Posts:** 746

Matt Gunsch wrote:

One of the founders of FAST and one of the authors of the manual, is who taught me to fly formation, I also supplied photos for the first update of the T-34 manual when the T-6 and other sections were added.

Just curious, how many hours of formation do you have as PIC? Have you ever been FAST certified?

Stoney · **Posted:** Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:39 am

Matt I know you flew GIB with Carl, but you are not one of the founders of FAST.

dhfan · **Posted:** Thu Oct 19, 2023 4:10 pm

He didn't say he was.

Randy Haskin · **Posted:** Thu Oct 19, 2023 4:22 pm

[quote="Matt Gunsch"]Formation in combat is not the same as formation in a airshow environment,[/quote[

I was, and am, talking about fingertip formation, not about wide tactical formations like fighting wing or otherwise.

For what it's worth, NATA's standard fingertip/close formation position is substantially wider than the typical military fingertip formation, which results in 3 feet of wingtip-to-wingtip separation between aircraft.

But, either way, the comment stands -- in close formation, wingmen should be able to make quick glances inside the cockpit (for radio changes or ops checks) or outside the formation without major deviations in formation position.

FAST/NATA cultivates a cultural standard of "don't ever look away from lead" for their own internal reasons, but that doesn't make it an outright truism (safety or otherwise) across all formation flying.

lucky52 · **Posted:** Thu Oct 19, 2023 6:17 pm

Well, I vote for Miss P. Galore for formation instructor.

Warbird Information Exchange

Low flying Stearman incident. October 4, 2023

Who is online