Warbird Information Exchange

Wade,

This is good intel that offers some more clues - exactly the type of clarifying data we need.

We can plot the town names to get a sense of the general mission flow.

As for Bunte/Kidd Hofer's plane's location we now have the following data points/facts:

1) 334th FS post-op debrief states: "An aircraft believed to be piloted by Lt. Allen F. Bunte was seen to crash on edge of lake by Potsdam."

2) From Bunte's personal recollection we know a) that the impact of the plane on the water knocked him unconscious, b) he sank with the craft strapped in the cockpit, c) while under water he struggled with his daze and tugged and pulled to get out of his chute harness instead of undoing the safety belt, d) he passed out again and somehow--he never knew exactly--floated to the surface, e) he then pulled the string to inflate the rubber dinghy getting one side to inflate but not the other, f) was able to grab a tree growing in the water a few yards away, g) staggered to the beach where he collapsed, and finally h) was delivered to a Luftwaffe airdrome.

One can therefore deduce:

1) He crashed in a portion of a yet-to-be identified Potsdam-area lake that was deep enough to completely submerge his aircraft/him. At the same time, the actual crash site in the lake could not have been too far from its shoreline.

2) He was very likely immediatlely transported to a Luffwaffe airdrome that was located reasonably close to this lake/the crash site.

Question/Next Task: Who among our forum members has a list of active Luftwaffe airdromes in the Potsdam area (that would be in close proximity to its lakes)?

Shade Ruff

To all:

After doing some more research, either the large airdrome near "Potsdam and lakes" or the "unidentified airdrome west of Brandenburg" may well have been Fliegerhorst Brandenburg-Briest. This could be where 1st Lt Bunte was taken once captured by German civilians.
Although used as a Luftwaffe training base, Me-262s would fly out of it in the latter stages of the war.

Shade Ruff

Swiss Mustang, I do have a P-51 in a pond in NRW, Germany. When the weather is hot, the wreck shows. We are working on salvage permission. Plane is rough, pilot baled out and plane blowed in, but I have stood on the wing already. Everyone thought it was a Spitfire, but the hose I got out the open wing panel had the typical Mustang 102 code on it. Danny

I remember looking at the Bunte MACR while doing some digging at the National Archives on another project, as the Bunte 51B has always been a dream bird of mine as well.

The MACR didn't help a bit sad to say.

Dan

Okay folks – some more data:

Excerpt from earlier mentioned Intelligence Summary No. 151 Narratives of Operations VIII Fighter Command for F.O. 288 of 5th April 1944:


4th FG 46 P-51 Mustang 12.45 – 17.45 F.O. 288 43-3-39 Various 4 Cat. E Flak
Fighter Sweep

(A) 4th Fighter Group, Colonel Blakeslee leading, (B) 46 P-51’s, up 12.45, down 17.45 hours (C) 5 abortive sorties (D) Field Order # 288 (E) three P-51’s lost due to enemy action by light Flak, one lost in the sea, reason unknown (F) nil (G) three missing: Capt. Duane W. Beeson, 1/Lt. Allen F. Bunte and 1/Lt. Charles D. Carr, all of 334th Squadron; Capt. Robert D. Hobert, 336th Squadron, not yet returned, rescued by A.S.R. (H) Claim 45-3-39 (air and ground): Ground and/or water targets claimed by Group (aircraft excluded): Three motor barges, two factories, one locomotive, one ferry-barge, one tug-boat, several flak-tower damaged by five pilots of 334th Squadron (I) Group made landfall-in near Zandvoort, 13.39 hours, at 23,000 feet. Position estimated due to 10/10th cloud which broke to 6/10th when to the east of Brunswick. Group went down through cloud when in the vicinity of Berlin at 15.00 hours, and attacked Friedersdorf airdrome, which had a dozen aircraft, all trainer-type twin-engined models. A large permanent airdrome near Potsdam, and the lakes, had new Ju-88’s parked. Stendal having 50-plus twin-engined types, Ju-88’s predominating. Plaue airdrome having Ju-188’s, and an un-identified airdrome west of Brandenburg with 15-plus Ju-88’s. The 336th Squadron claimed 25-2-14 in this area. At Stendal, where Flak defenses were negligible, the balance being distributed on the other airdromes, where the defense was moderate to intense from both light- and medium-Flak. Destroyed aircraft were substantiated by fires and explosions seen from orbits over the airdromes. Captain Duane W. Beeson and Lieutenant Charles D. Carr were hit by flak from an airdrome west of Brandenburg, after an attack by a section of four aircraft against 8-10 Ju-88’s in good alignment. Pilots not seen to bale-out, but heard of their intention over the R/T. A P-51, believed piloted by Lieutenant Allan F. Bunte, was seen to crash on the edge of a lake near Potsdam. Captain Robert D. Hobert baled-out 30 miles east of Clacton, and was picked up by a launch of the Air-Sea Rescue service; cause unknown. Group crossed out south of Ijmuiden , 16.30 hours, at 20,000 feet.

Cat. E 05.04.44 Maj Duane W. Beeson: PoW 4th FG 334th FS P-51B-5 43-6819 QP-B Flak: Stendal
Cat. E 05.04.44 1/Lt. Allan F. Bunte: PoW 4th FG 334th FS P-51B-5 43-6946 QP-L HT-Cables: Gardelegen
Cat. E 05.04.44 1/Lt. Charles D. Carr: PoW 4th FG 334th FS P-51B-5 43-6837 QP-I Flak: Brandenburg
Cat. E 05.04.44 Capt. Robert D. Hobert ASR 4th FG 336th FS P-51B-5 436836 VF- Eng: EPJ North Sea

Below are the claims for the 4th FG that day – interesting listing of airfields.




Upon return, five P-51’s showed repairable damage; four from ground fire, and one from hitting a tree (Damage Cat. A and AC)

Hope this helps
Cordially
Martin

Danny

very interesting ! - can you PM me the exact location - I might be able to come up with some possible candidates for this ship

NA-102 points to an Inglewood built P-51B

Cheers
Martin

Martin,

This report confirms my theory (mentioned above) concerning Brandenburg-Briest. It's clear this airfield was a principal focus of the 334th FS's mission profile that day. This must be the Luftwaffe airfield to which Bunte was transported after his capture.

One correction though. The town/area referred to in the report as "Weisswarter/Busch" is actually Weissewarte/Busch.

This report helps narrow the search for the body of water in the Brandenburg/Potsdam area where Kidd Hofer's plane now lies.

Shade Ruff

Wade

do you have access to the individual combat reports for the pilots of the 334th FS, these reports usually also contain witness accounts dealing with pilots lost during a mission - on the other hand, such information usually was incorporated as detailed as possible in the MACR's - and we have found out that in the case of Bunte's loss the MACR doesn't yeald any valuable info.


Martin

Hi Martin,

Your efforts are much appreciated ... it's fun digging up all this stuff, eh?

For my part ...

334 Sqdn's 'diary' didn't include the "Pilot Combat Reports" for April. though each day's narrative (reproduced above for 5 April) is detailed. All I can add to my info above is that Bunte went down ". . . about 1515 hrs." -- as stated in the "Casualties" section of the day's entries for 334.

It seems that the 4FG squadron 'diaries' were assembled in-house from several primary sources, e.g., the Operational Record Book, Squadron Intel Summaries (narrative of events), Awards and Decs, other misc. orders, Victory Confirmation reports, Form 34s (pilot/aircraft sortie line-ups), and the "Pilot Combat Reports" ... how in-depth the diary gets, and what documents were included/attached to the diary depended (evidently) on how gung-ho the clerk and/or Intel officer was.

BTW, the diaries for 335 and 336 Sqdn were not yet declassified (so I'm told) when Garry Fry and Jeff Ethell wrote "Escort to Berlin". Luckily, they did have 334's diary to go on as a framework for the book. It's overall the best of the three squadrons in terms of general details, I think.

I have all three squadron's diaries for the entire war (incl a few months of 133 ES), and they make fascinating reading. I also recently came into the surviving Tower Logs dating late April 44 to late Sept 44. So, any general 4FG details you need that would be known to the pilots or Intel types at the time, I can probably help.

Oh, I checked 335 and 336 Sqdn as well for 5th April, and 336's does include all of the April "Pilot Combat Reports", but no mention of seeing Bunte go down.

I guess the MACR is all they knew.

Wade

_________________
Website: http://www.wademeyersart.com
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/Wade.Meyers.Studios

Wade,

Thanks again for your interest and help as Martin and I try to piece together this long-standing puzzle. We are narrowing the hunt.

Shade Ruff

To all:

If there is one report that should say it all about Bunte's loss, this is it:

KU Report - National Archives and Record Administration (NARA). If the loss of the aircraft occurred over German territory, a German Kampf Flugzeuge USA [Battle Planes USA] document was prepared by the Luftwaffe concerning the location of the aircraft wreckage and fate of the crew. National Archives has the original reports as well as translations available.

Shade Ruff

On a short side bar on "Salem Representative", I know that if you own a Mustang you can paint it anyway you want, and I understand the marketing appeal and frendships with living WWII aces, but do we really need another "Old Crow" P-51?
I, for one am quite tired of "Old Crow". It seems like every new print or model that comes out has to have a version of Anderson's bird.
Too bad Roush's Malcom Hooded bird has to follow the same, tired line when there are so many great paint schemes to choose from.
Let's hope this thread leads to finding Hofer's original bird!!!
My two cents.
Jerry

Has anyone EVER thought of painting a P-51 to replicate one of the European Theater's leading WWII aces--------Leonard K.(Kit) Carson. He defiitely rates as one of our countries leading aces with at least 22 victories.

His most well known Mustang was named "Nooky Booky IV". I think this is not only a colorful, but somewhat humorous name. When will some Mustang owner step up and decorate their plane to commemorate one of our most countries highest ranking aces-------"Kit" Carson? What do all you warbird enthusiasts think?

Has anyone EVER thought of painting a P-51 to replicate one of the European Theater's leading WWII aces--------Leonard K.(Kit) Carson. He defiitely rates as one of our countries leading aces with at least 22 victories.

Already been done.

http://www.mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/su ... 4427.shtml

Any other requests?

_________________
It was a good idea, it just didn't work.

RER,

The following data is provided:

Rank/Name: 1st Lt Allen F. Bunte

Serial Number: O885497

Unit of Assignment: 334th Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Group

Date of Mission/Loss/Internment: 5 April 1944

Type of Mission: Fighter Sweep

Location of Loss: Lake in the vicinity of Brandenburg/Potsdam, Germany


Shade Ruff