Invaders upside down at US airshows in the 1970s.

Pogmusic · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:55 pm

Double post

Pogmusic · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:55 pm

Tint wrote:

This is not in the US, but here is Sugarland Express doing a roll........starts about the 3:50 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iayVNS20rc

I'll be damned! Flyin' pigs! :drinkers:

T J Johansen · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:52 pm

I did kinda expect the answer to the question to be no. There were never any mention of such maneuvers in Air Classics airshow reviews or any other magazines, nor from recollections on aviation forums in more recent times.

As for the author of the letter in Flight Magazine, it was Keith Sissons who captained B-17 "Sally B" throughout the 80s and 90s. And was a friend of Don Bullock. There was a lot of letter exchanges in Flight Magazine after the A-26 accident, and the views became quite polarized.

Anyway, here is another clip of N167B performing a roll, at Ørebro, Sweden in 2013.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsiIOKnHQMk

T J

JohnB · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:03 pm

Given the well-publicised Invader wing failures in the early days of Vietnam, anyone who does a roll in anything other than a "K" (and perhaps even that considering they were rebuilt 45 years ago) is likely a fool.

JohnB · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:03 pm

Given the well-publicised Invader wing failures in the early days of Vietnam, anyone who does a roll in anything other than a "K" (and perhaps even that considering they were rebuilt 45 years ago) is likely a fool.

JohnB · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:09 pm

Given the well-publicised Invader wing failures in the early days of Vietnam, anyone who does a roll in anything other than a "K" (and perhaps even that considering they were rebuilt 45 years ago) is likely a fool.

Kyleb · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:19 pm

airnutz wrote:

An aviator once reminded me that, as long as the aircraft is performing a 1G maneuver, the airframe doesn't "know" the difference between that and level flight.

The problem is that Invaders have a nasty habit of breaking the rear spar. A roll with a lot of control deflection and a hiccup of extra G's could put you there.

A26 Special K · **Joined:** Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:27 pm **Posts:** 2559

I'm an A-26 pilot and restorer. I've flown the B and will soon fly the K model. Not sure why there is this fascination with rolling a bomber. The AF pilot's manual prohibits acrobatics. It is basically a 3 g airplane in the pitch axis and less than two if trying to maneuver in two axes. Too much is made of the wing failures in VN and at Hurlburt AFB. The accident investigation at Hurlburt found tool marks in the holes where the nacelle mates to the wing spar. Fatigue cracks propagated that were exacerbated by frequent overstressing the wing in hard rolling pull up's over a 20 year span. Holding up to twenty years of abuse says the wings were a lot stronger than given credit. The A-26 production was delayed by the lack of wingsets in 1943. Hap Arnold told Douglas he wanted the A-26 for this war, not the next. Douglas had built an additional plant in Tulsa and settled on building C models there. To get more wings, they outsourced production to Beech in Wichita. These were the wings that produced the most fatigue cracks. The K model wing was rebuilt and stainless steel spar caps were installed on the top and bottom by OnMark in 1964-65. CIA and AF pilots resumed flying it like a fighter in some cases. I have film taken on a maintenance flight where the K model was rolled. Current A-26's are now 71 or more years old. It's time to take it easy on the old gals! JR

JFS61 · **Joined:** Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:44 pm **Posts:** 305

You would think that when the manufacturer (who should know a thing or two about the aircraft that they're building) states in its pilot manuals and technical orders that all acrobatics are forbidden for that specific type, that there might be a very good reason for that. Unless you are in a combat situation where pulling such a maneuver might just mean the difference between life and death, there is really no good justification for engaging in such a stunt.

As for Bullock, he appears to have been the poster child for the old chestnut regarding old pilots and bold pilots. He may have possessed what in today's parlance we call "mad skills", but as too often in such cases, that no doubt led to a feeling of being "bulletproof." I've read accounts from people who were at Biggin Hill that day who stated that they were expecting the airframe to come apart at any second due to the way he was throwing the aircraft around in the sky. The fact he met his end the way he did surprised no one who knew of his reputation. Even so, still a very sad situation for all those involved.

As A26 Special K stated above, take it easy with the old birds. If what you really want to do is high-G acrobatics, then go buy a Zivko.

Firebird · **Posted:** Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:53 am

T J Johansen wrote:

As for the author of the letter in Flight Magazine, it was Keith Sissons who captained B-17 "Sally B" throughout the 80s and 90s. And was a friend of Don Bullock.

I think we only have Sally B around today because Bullock died in the A-26 so early in Sally B's display life, given the way he flew the B-17 it could have so easily been the B-17 he went in with.....

Kyleb · **Posted:** Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:47 pm

What are the circumstances of that last B-17 picture?

Bradleygolding · **Posted:** Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:01 pm

They forgot to take the U/C locks out, but decided to do the normal display anyway. Biggin Hill has a valley in front of the runway and a number of display pilots used it to great advantage.

Steve

Lon Moer · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2016 2:34 pm

Was reading on Martin Simpson's A-26 site for something else and came across this reference in regards to A-26 OnMark Marketeer N7079G (44-35562);

Quote:

Note: It was at the CAF airshow where 7079G (re)broke the spar.
The incident occurred during a banked turn, not a loop.
IIRC the spar had been previously repaired and was the subject of some litigation.

The majority of the wing spar cracks are concerned with the A-26 is due to one of the wing bolt mounting holes on the rear wing spar of the wing section....not the attachment point on the fuselage.

Evidently there is a pop noise it makes when one goes under heavy loading.

JimH · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:22 pm

I remember this site from years ago when I was researching warbird accidents for a ground school presentation. I'm surprised it is still there.

http://napoleon130.tripod.com/id510.html

There is never any reason to "load up" a bomber during a show...they weren't meant to pull G's or show off for a crowd.

jim

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Invaders upside down at US airshows in the 1970s.

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