Rebuild progress of Me 109 “Rote Sieben”

[Shay]

Setter

Just so we are clear and there is no misunderstanding. I mean't no sarcasm or slighting of anykind towards Dave. I have nothing but severe respect for Dave and his accomplishments along with many other prominent figures that visit this board.

That being said. I'm only out to discover the truth and if posible contribute positively to the conversation. I added my caveat to the end of my post basically because I am merely a avid fan of Warbirds and their history and not an expert and am subject to error. I know what I know from reading a miriad of different publications and 2nd or 3rd hand accounts. Perhaps I take things too often for face value and assume they are correct or gospil in some cases. As the saying goes "History has 3 sides, His side, my side and the truth" In actuallity it's probalbly more than 3, alot more. In the future I will strive to remain more open minded.

Regards

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

[setter]

Hi Shay

I wasn't having a go at your post either just pointing out Daves background in the type and reinforcing that History is something to be taken seriously. I fully agree with your comments about perspectives of history. Mr Hitler would probably have a different view of WW11 than Mr Churchill. Neither would be very objective!!

Kind regards
John p

[DaveM2]

Shay / John

No problem I did not take your comments personally. Thanks for your support as well John.
The fact the Spain only received 25 unfinished airframes in 1943 is 'common knowledge' among any student of the 109. They did acquire a few 109Fs that wandered into their airspace. Buchons have always been a poor cousin to the 'real' 109s as far as I have been concerned over the years, but it is was the continuous claims by their owners that they had one of the 'original ' German built machines and my subsequent 'Survivors' articles that I investigated the type more closely. My sources were not only books produced by credible historians, but also direct contact with friends at the Spanish Air Force Museum.
Mr Kindsvater himself has 'suggested' that his airframe is German built ( something to do with the colour of the metal when he polished it ), so I assume Mr O'Leary 'ran with it' and covered his tracks with the highlighted statement that 'some' of the 170 ( checked my own article and it is 172) were new and some suplied by Germany. That is totally incorrect......the ONLY airframes supplied by Germany were the first 25. All subsequent 170+ airframes were built as new in Spain. Certainly possible that a few of the German built machines survived into the fifties, but as mentioned there is no evidence that any survive today and all have been examined at one time or another by people who knew what they were looking for.
IMHO people should realise that the Buchon is historic in its own right and should treat it as such...instead of portaying it as a pseudo Luftwaffe aircraft. Would love to see one flying in the Blue Spanish colours!

Dave

[airnutz]

IMHO people should realise that the Buchon is historic in its own right and should treat it as such...instead of portaying it as a pseudo Luftwaffe aircraft. Would love to see one flying in the Blue Spanish colours!

Amen brother... What a great discussion!! With all this '09 talent
around, I gotta a question...Given that the Transport Merlin is more
robust and more reliable compared to it's military counterpart, I'm
assuming there is a great weight penalty for the return. Is this the main
downside of the Buchon, versus essentially the same airframe with the
lean..mean DB 605?

ps
In addition to the weight penalty, I'm also assuming, for reliability, the TM
is detuned for fuel and wear savings.

[mrhenniger]

There is/was the blue (sort of) Bouchon at the Kalamazoo Air Zoo...
http://community.webshots.com/photo/475 ... 2405gxEqoC
http://community.webshots.com/photo/475 ... 2405aKXyHr
http://community.webshots.com/photo/475 ... 2405AmwhGB
(I just noticed I got some of the dates wrong on those photos. I will correct that. They were taken in 1995.)

Is it still there? (I don't have my copy of the CW 109 series by D.M. handy)

Mike

[Steven M. Dennis]

Is it still there? (I don't have my copy of the CW 109 series by D.M. handy)

Mike, it was last August when we went by on our way to Thunder. You were so close, you should try to pop over there again if you get time this year when you go to Thunder..... You ARE going to Thunder this year aren't you?

Steve

[DaveM2]

Rob

Not too sure what your talking about here. MBB Germany have to Buchon conversions, one a G-6 and the other a G-10. The G-10 was previously owned and converted by Hans Dittes. He owned a Buchon to which he added a DB605, original cowlings, prop and canopy and supposedly a set of G-6 wings found in a Spanish Tech school. There was an attempt to pass the aircraft off as a German built G-10, using a wreck he had 'discovered' in the Czech Republic, which didn't stand up to scrutiny, as one day he had a Buchon...and after the G-10 was done...it wasn't there any more! He also could only come up with what were obviously immediate post war black & white wreck pics of a 109. To top it off the aircraft was advertized on Barnstormers as a 'combat veteran' !! There were several well written letters about the whole saga in Warbirds Worldwide at one time.
It sure did sound sweet when it attended 'Warbirds over Wanaka' in 1996 though.

Dave

[DazDaMan]

Not too sure what your talking about here. MBB Germany have to Buchon conversions, one a G-6 and the other a G-10.

They also have a static DB-fitted Buchon, if memory serves me correctly.

[DaveM2]

Daz

That is correct. Conversion to G-2 standard.

Dave

[Firebird]

It sure did sound sweet when it attended 'Warbirds over Wanaka' in 1996 though.

Sounded even better a few years before that on the limited occasions it flew with Black 6....

[mrhenniger]

You ARE going to Thunder this year aren't you?

That is MY intention. The trick is to make it CATHERINE'S intention.

Mike

[Shay]

Wouldn't a metalurgy examination be able to tell the difference between any possible german airframes and the Spanish New Builds in the fleet of HA-1112-MILs? The aluminum used to build the 2 type airframes would be different and would have come from different sources thus having a different make-up of contaminants in the aluminum right?

Shay
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Semper Fortis

[Eric Friedebach]

I’ve received an email from Bob Brown, Publisher of Magnesium Monthly Review. He has given me permission to post what he sent me here.

Eric:
I am a magnesium buff. I have worked in and followed magnesium in aircraft for a number of years. Was surprised to see that most all the engines hung on German fighter and some bomber airframes used forged magnesium engine bearers. In 2005 I had a chance to go to Dessau, Germany the home of Junkers. I visited the Junkers Museum, but found that no one was aware that Prof Hertel of Junkers was the main force behind the use of magnesium engine bearers. Junkers was a leader in the total use of magnesium in aircraft structures. However, the Stuka, ME109, ME110, FW190 (earlier models with radial engines used a magnesium ring, the later models with the in-line engine used standard types of magnesium engine bearers.

I am wondering if the redone bearer was done in magnesium?

Bob Brown

Eric:
Thanks for the prompt response. Anything I can learn about the use of magnesium in any of the German aircraft would be quite interesting. I find, as with the Volkswagen Beetle, instead of magnesium, the term Light Metal is often used. The Beetle had a magnesium crankcase and a magnesium transmission and an number of other parts amounting to over 20kg per car.

Going thru some of the published aircraft details, such as Janes, Hitler's Luftwaffe by Wood and Gunston, there is an occasional reference to magnesium and sometimes to "Elektron" which was the German trade name for magnesium. I have many of the actual reports on the US debriefing of the German wartime industry people, on the subject of magnesium. that was where I first learned about Dessau and prof Hertel. Most of the wheels of the WWII aircraft were magnesium. That was in all AF's. US, German, British, etc.

Feel free to use my name if you wish. I have noted on some of the recently recovered German aircraft from lakes, that there is mention of the magnesium being corroded away. Which is not surprising. In one picture the part of a 109 bearer that was buried in the mud survived, while the part that was exposed was gone.

It would be interesting to know if the people rebuilding the 109's are aware that the bearers were magnesium and if they can find people today to reproduce the replacements in the original metal. It would be quite costly to do it as a magnesium forging I am sure.

Thanks again,
Bob

Robert E. Brown
Publisher
Magnesium Monthly Review

[Jack Frost]

[quote="Col. Rohr"]Hi Shay,

I would like to also state that we all know that Air Comics in the past have been very wrong in alot of there statements and articles.

Gee, I called it Classic Airrors!